NICK: Hi, this is Nick (ph) from Oshkosh. I'm getting ready to go out on the longest run I have ever completed - a 43-miler to challenge myself for my upcoming birthday next month. This show was recorded at...
SARAH MCCAMMON, HOST:
1:34 p.m. Eastern time on Tuesday, July 30, 2024.
NICK: Things may have changed by the time you've heard this, but I'll still be recovering. OK, here's the show.
(SOUNDBITE OF THE BIGTOP ORCHESTRA'S "TEETER BOARD: FOLIES BERGERE (MARCH AND TWO-STEP)")
DEEPA SHIVARAM, BYLINE: I'm sorry - did he say 43 miles?
MCCAMMON: Yeah.
DEIRDRE WALSH, BYLINE: That sounds challenging. That's not the way I want to spend my birthday, but good luck.
SHIVARAM: Are you OK? (Laughter) That's crazy.
MCCAMMON: Hydrate. Hey there, it's the NPR POLITICS PODCAST. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover the campaign.
SHIVARAM: I'm Deepa Shivaram. I cover the White House.
WALSH: And I'm Deirdre Walsh. I cover Congress.
MCCAMMON: Today on the show, Vice President Kamala Harris is looking for a running mate - and one with some executive experience. She's still vetting a list of candidates. And first, we should just talk about what goes into a decision like this. Deirdre, you actually spoke with somebody who's made it through this process before, right?
WALSH: I did. I talked to Virginia Senator Tim Kaine. He was tapped by Hillary Clinton to be her running mate in 2016. He admitted that he's actually been giving some advice to some of the candidates on Harris' shortlist. He would not say who he's been talking to. But he knows what it's like to be vetted. He said it's very intense. He said it was an honor.
The other thing he noted was, this time around, it's much more accelerated. I mean, he said what they're going to do in two weeks to vet Harris' pick is likely something they normally do in - over two months. And he thinks that means there'll be fewer candidates vetted. It's unclear whether or not that's the case. But clearly, he's got a special insight.
He also talked about what he thought was the sort of overriding factor in whether or not someone picks a running mate. There's a lot of talk about whether Harris should pick somebody that helps her with the electoral map - sort of helps her win a key battleground state - but Kaine argued it should really be all about chemistry.
TIM KAINE: You have to have someone that you trust will be brutally candid with you in a closed room, but then be completely publicly supportive and respectful outside the closed room.
MCCAMMON: You know, Deirdre, you talk about vetting. And one thing I've wondered about that is - I mean, what are they looking for? Are we talking about skeletons in the closet? Are we talking about scandals in the past? I mean, these are already public figures who are usually being considered, right?
WALSH: Right. But I think, when you're vetting a candidate to be a vice presidential candidate, it's a different kind of vetting than candidates go through for, like, a House race or a Senate race or a race for governor. I think there's a much longer tail in terms of what campaign lawyers look at - public statements, past positions, personal relationships and discussions with, you know, people that you went to college with. We're seeing some of this emerge as we learned about Trump's running mate - JD Vance's sort of previous statements before he was a politician.
A lot of Democratic lawmakers on the Hill are very focused on balancing Harris politically, and I think a lot of them are looking for somebody with executive experience, somebody from maybe a Midwestern state. Obviously, these are the types of people that we know are on her list already. I talked to one Democrat, Missouri Congressman Emmanuel Cleaver, who said, you know, Harris was picked from a center-left presidential candidate, Joe Biden, and he thinks that Harris is going to pick somebody who's also sort of from that same ideological spectrum and argued, you know, Republicans are going to try and fail to paint the ticket as out of step with voters.
SHIVARAM: Yeah.
MCCAMMON: So Deepa, Deirdre's talking about what lawmakers want - what leading Democrats want. What do you know about what Harris herself is looking for?
SHIVARAM: I mean, keep in mind, she's coming at this from the position of having served as vice president herself. And we know that Joe Biden had a similar process, right? You know, he knew what it took to serve as No. 2, and that really went into his decision for picking his No. 2. And she's sort of in the same boat here. She knows what it takes to be a partner, to be a governing partner, to be someone who is in the room who can be honest with you.
You know, I keep hearing this from former Harris aides, from people in her orbit. She needs someone who can give it to her straight because she - you know, we've seen her in those, you know, congressional hearings, right? When she's questioning people like Brett Kavanaugh, she's questioning people like Jeff Sessions, she is really direct. She's a prosecutor. She's a lawyer. She has a very, very, like, legal, wonky brain. And so for her, I think she's probably looking at this, No. 1, as, you know, a governing partner making those decisions together.
But she definitely is someone who is extremely direct in her questioning, even behind the scenes. And I can say that as someone who's had to ask her questions. And she looks back at you, and I'm like, I've said the wrong thing. Like, I'm completely questioning what I said. I've had that experience, so I definitely can say, you know, she really, really is such a direct thinker and direct person. And from folks who have worked with her in her orbit, they say she's going to want someone who can be in the room with her and give her that honest opinion - kind of like what Senator Kaine was saying.
MCCAMMON: That, I think, in a lot of her supporters' minds, is one of her strengths. But, like Deirdre was saying, she needs somebody who can sort of balance her.
SHIVARAM: Also balance her out - and look, I was in Wisconsin with her last week - her first campaign rally in Milwaukee. I talked to a voter there who was - you know, he showed up. He's excited to vote for Kamala Harris. But I asked, you know, what are people in Milwaukee saying about Harris? What are people in your state saying about Harris? And he paused for a second, and he was like, she's a California woke. And his point was she needs to come here and prove that that's not true. And so there is definitely this perception of maybe her partner in this - maybe the vice presidential person that she picks would sort of potentially balance that out.
MCCAMMON: OK. Lots of names have been floating around as potential running mates for Harris. Some people - and I'm always curious about this, too. Some people have already said publicly, I'm bowing out. What do we know about about those folks?
WALSH: I mean, we learned last night that North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper has taken himself out of contention. It sounds like his argument was he didn't want to leave the state at a time where there is a very competitive race to succeed him as governor. It's obviously a potential swing state. Democrats are hoping to put it in play this year. But, you know, who knows why he took himself out of consideration. I think that there's the public explanation, and there may be more to it.
There is a former military leader - Admiral McRaven, early on, took himself out of consideration. There was some reporting that Harris was looking at somebody with military experience, possibly as a way to balance out her ticket, but he also took himself out of consideration.
SHIVARAM: And the other person I'll mention is Gretchen Whitmer. The governor of Michigan said, pretty early on, I'm going to finish out my term as governor. And so there are some folks that had - that, you know, people had been floating and were very much names that people were talking about. And Roy Cooper, Deirdre, to your point, I mean, he had a long relationship with Harris going back to when they were attorneys general together. So that was someone that people were really floating as a potential partner for her.
MCCAMMON: All right. Well, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be back in just a moment.
And we're back. So, let's talk about what we've been hearing from these men so far, and they are pretty much all men. Deirdre, Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona is obviously up on the Hill. What's he been saying?
WALSH: Well, he's been surrounded by reporters every time he walks back and forth from his office to the chamber for votes. And he pretty much says the same thing every time. He says, it's not about me. This is all about helping Vice President Harris, do everything I can to make sure she wins in November. He immediately sort of goes into a well-rehearsed speech about, it's all about making the contrast between what Donald Trump would do as president in terms of potentially taking away rights for women. So it's sort of like he immediately sort of goes into the what's-at-stake speech and tries to step away from any details in terms of who he's been talking to the campaign.
MCCAMMON: What are the other guys saying?
WALSH: I mean, there has been, as Deepa knows, obviously, a parade of potential vice presidential candidates doing a lot of campaigning for the ticket, right? They're doing events in key battleground states. They're doing interviews on cable TV. And they are steering clear of specific questions, but making it clear they're interested.
SHIVARAM: Yeah. It's such a weird job interview process, right? Like, you clearly want the job, but you can't say that you want the job, and you can't act like you want the job, but you have to present yourself publicly in a way that makes it seem you're really prepared for the job. So it's really a bizarre - like, this whole veepstakes process is just so bizarre. But, yeah, I mean, to Deirdre's point, these are folks like Governor Tim Walz of Minnesota, folks who are not normally on cable TV every other day, who are now on cable TV every other day, and really making not only, you know, Kamala Harris' pitch and showing that they can be an advocate for her, but this is really also their moment to sort of, you know, advertise what they've done with their record and the work they've done in their state, especially if they're a governor 'cause keep in mind, I mean, the Democratic bench is pretty deep here. There are a lot of contenders, who if Kamala Harris hadn't been the likely nominee here, this is a young party with a lot of options and a lot of people who are waiting.
WALSH: And you're also seeing different constituencies pushing for different possible VPs, right? There are more progressive groups and labor groups pushing for people like Tim Walz from Minnesota, who has a record on some of the issues they care about. You have more moderate Democrats pushing for people like Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear and the record he has in a red state. So, obviously, there are different parts of the coalition that are going to be happier about different picks, but it seems like the enthusiasm for the ticket is picking up because it's sort of a new cast of characters.
SHIVARAM: And because there's a clock. Like, we are zooming here. Like, we talked about this earlier, but, like, the fact that this is such a shortened timeline, I feel like almost hypes up the excitement and the attention even more than it would have been if this was a drawn-out monthslong process.
MCCAMMON: Well, I did some reporting in recent days on, you know, the gendered and race-focused attacks that Harris has been, you know, experiencing the last few days. And I guess the thinking is that a white male likely governor would maybe offset some of that. Is that the thinking?
SHIVARAM: I think potentially. I mean, like, her No. 1 priority is probably going to be that governing experience, that executive experience that a governor brings to the table. And two, I mean, look, I think she is well aware of the attacks against her - right? - and the perceptions of her race, especially because in 2019, when she last ran for president, you know, she was a little more left to Joe Biden and, you know, what this administration has been doing the last four years. So there's definitely some political history that she has where, you know, she's certainly a more center candidate, but it's pretty easy to sort of peg her as more left-leaning. So a moderate, you know, running mate might potentially balance that out, at least for voters.
MCCAMMON: As we said, the clock's ticking. We can stop speculating very soon, likely, because we should have the answer within really days.
SHIVARAM: By August 7, yeah.
MCCAMMON: Yeah. All right, we're going to leave it there for today. And if you haven't already, please follow the podcast wherever you're getting your podcasts from these days. It helps us out a lot. I'm Sarah McCammon. I cover the campaign.
SHIVARAM: I'm Deepa Shivaram. I cover the White House.
WALSH: And I'm Deirdre Walsh. I cover Congress.
MCCAMMON: Thank you for listening to the NPR POLITICS PODCAST.
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