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AISHA HARRIS, HOST:
The primetime Emmy Awards were last night and "Hacks," "The Bear" and "Shogun" won big. And if you're nostalgic for shows like "Schitt's Creek" or "Happy Days," this ceremony had you covered. I'm Aisha Harris. It's 12:54 a.m. and we're recapping the Emmy awards on NPR's POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR. Joining me are my fellow co-hosts, Linda Holmes. Hello, Linda.
LINDA HOLMES, HOST:
Hello, Aisha.
HARRIS: And with us also is Glen Weldon. Hey, Glen.
GLEN WELDON, HOST:
Hey, friend.
HARRIS: All right. It's great to be here. It's late. Let's get right to it. So let's actually start with the comedy awards. We had a kind of surprising upsets. I think there's a lot of expectations that "The Bear" was going to take it. But "Hacks" was the big winner tonight. It won in the outstanding comedy series, and as well for writing. Jean Smart also won in the lead actress category. She plays the comedy legend Deborah Vance. And the series follows her character and the young writer she hires to freshen up her act. It airs on Max or HBO or Max as she joked during her speech.
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JEAN SMART: Casey and Sarah and everybody at HBO Max - no, I'm sorry. Just what we needed, another network.
HARRIS: Let's talk about it. How did we feel about this win?
HOLMES: I was very happy for them. I think among other things, this was an exceptionally good season of "Hacks." I think out of the seasons that they've done, this last one was my favorite. We'll talk a little bit about the acting wins for "The Bear," but I was struck by the possibility the category fraud kind of eventually caught up with them, perhaps, that people felt like, yes, we want to praise these performances, but for outstanding comedy series, we want to pick a true comedy series, which "Hacks" is.
WELDON: Yeah. I think the Emmy voters heard all of our grumbling about how "The Bear" is not a comedy series, and they voted accordingly. Because the only time what it matters what you call a series is now, right? And...
HOLMES: Yes.
WELDON: ...When "Hacks" won for comedy writing, that's when it really hit me that yes, of course, because it is a different skill set involved. Comedy, especially shows like "Girls5eva" and the other two, which was also nominated - they're joke-dense, and they're about language and rhythm and timing. You craft jokes to land with a punch. You got to give them room to breathe, like "Hacks" does. Drama is about capturing, you know, emotions and stuff (laughter), which may or may not involve dialogue, because maybe your characters can't or don't or won't articulate what's going on with them emotionally. So it's just such a completely different skill set that when it won for writing, and when it won for best comedy, I was pumping my fist.
HARRIS: Yeah, I mean, the other skill set, the special skill set that this show has, is the fact that it's a comedy about writing comedy.
WELDON: Exactly.
HARRIS: And that makes it even harder, even more difficult to capture that essence. I'm with you all. I was very pleased to see this win. I was kind of surprised that "Abbott Elementary" basically went home...
WELDON: Yeah.
HARRIS: ...Emptyhanded this year. But, you know, it was a tough category, and "The Bear" - well, let's talk about "The Bear." Now, to be clear, in case people forget, because of, like, the wonky way that the nominations lock up, these nominations were actually for Season 2 of "The Bear," not this latest season. So we're not talking about we're all just kind of I think a lot of us were kind of ho hum on this latest season. No, this is Season 2 with "Fishes," with the big holiday episode and the star-studded stuff.
HARRIS: "The Bear," while it did not pick up the outstanding comedy award, it did pick up the acting wins, as we've sort of already hinted at that. Jeremy Allen White, who plays Chef Carmy, won in the lead actor in a comedy series category. Ebon Moss-Bachrach won supporting actor for playing Richie. And oh, this made me so happy. Liza Colon-Zayas, who plays Chef Tina, won supporting actress, and she became the first Latina performer to do so in this category. And it also picked up a directing win in the comedy category. So, you know, Glen, let's start with you. How are you feeling about these wins here?
WELDON: I'm happy about all these performances, and I'm happy that they got recognized, especially Colon-Zayas. But, you know, if Ayo Edebiri hadn't put herself up in the lead actress category, which she deserves to be, because, of course, she is in that show, then maybe she might have crowded out Colon-Zayas. So, you know, I think it's a combination of things that won it for, including just she's great in the show.
HARRIS: Yeah, and I would say, also, for all the talk about "The Bear" not being a comedy, which I sort of agree with. I do think that Ebon Moss-Bachrach is very funny to me.
WELDON: True.
HOLMES: And I have no problem with recognizing that as a comedic performance, much more than I think the Jeremy Allen White performance is a comedic performance. Richie, to me, is hilarious.
HARRIS: Yes, this is very true. He might be the funniest thing about that show. While the Fak brothers are their own thing. But...
HOLMES: Yeah, they are.
HARRIS: ...the less you talk about the Faks, the better.
WELDON: And the fact that the Seven Fishes episode won best directing, that makes sense, because that is - you are grappling with so many egos. There are so many guest stars. There are so many things going on in that episode that you just have to bring all of these performances together and make it seem like they all belong together, and it really did.
HARRIS: Absolutely. Well, let's move on to the drama category. And, you know, "Shogun," I think, anyone who was paying pretty close attention to the nominees this season, would not be surprised. It was favored to win the outstanding drama category, and it did win. And "Shogun" actually holds the record now for the most awards won by a single season of a TV series. So big deal - it picked up a lot of technical awards as well. And this show is set in feudal Japan. It's about the frenzy to find a successor after a ruler dies. This airs on FX. And it won also two pretty big acting awards.
You have Hiroyuki Sanada, who won for lead actor in a drama. He plays Lord Toranaga. And also, Anna Sawai won in the lead actors category for playing the translator Mariko. Another big first - she's the first Asian performer to win in this category. One last thing - "Shogun" also picked up a win for directing. Now, I got to admit, I have not checked the show out yet. But I know, Glen, you were a fan of this, so are we happy about these wins?
WELDON: Very happy and completely deserved. What surprised me was what it didn't win. It didn't win best writing for a drama series. "Slow Horses" won that. It didn't win supporting actor in a drama series. Billy Crudup did, and Linda, maybe you can talk to that. But it did make me wonder how much this show's chances would have been different if it was entered, if it had been nominated as a limited series, which, of course, it began as. It was a limited series. Then FX picked it up for more seasons. If it was still a limited series, it would have been up against "Baby Reindeer." And that would have been a fight.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WELDON: But as it is, its closest competition in the drama series was probably "The Crown." "The Crown" is ending. I think it was kind of easily favored over that for very good reasons.
HOLMES: I really liked this show. I thought it was very good. I thought that it deserved all the awards that it got. Glen, in terms of Billy Crudup, the only thing I'll say is, if you're going to recognize anything from "The Morning Show," it should be Billy Crudup...
WELDON: OK.
HOLMES: ...Who is very good on that show. So, listen, is that who I would have picked? Not necessarily. Do I get it? Yes.
HARRIS: And just to clarify, Billy Crudup actually won in the supporting actor in a drama series category. Well, up next, we have "Baby Reindeer," which we've already mentioned. And this was the Netflix limited series that was pretty controversial, but also a ton of people watched it. Richard Gadd told the semi-autobiographical story of a man who becomes the romantic obsession of a mentally ill woman who proceeds to stalk him. Now, there are some legal issues surrounding this show, even as it won a bunch of awards. In fact, our colleague NPR culture desk correspondent Mandalit del Barco has reported on a lawsuit against Netflix.
There's a Scottish woman named Fiona Harvey, who claims the character of Martha is based on her, and she's suing Netflix for defamation. Some of the things she claims include that she's never been convicted of a crime and never sexually assaulted Gadd. The fictional Martha is depicted as a convicted stalker and is seen sexually assaulting Gadd's character. Netflix gave a statement to NPR saying that the network intends to, quote, "defend this matter vigorously and to stand by Richard Gadd's right to tell his story."
Now, Gadd took home wins in both lead actor and writing awards in the limited or anthology series or movie categories. And Jessica Gunning, who played Martha, won in the supporting actress category. We did a whole episode about this. It's a great episode where you, Glen, talked about this with Guy Branum about this. I found this show very fascinating and also conflicting. But I was kind of happy to see some of these wins. How do you feel, Glen?
WELDON: Oh, sure. I mean, like, I can't go against this guy because, like, he put himself out there in a very real way. And so a lot of these are completely deserving. It did not win for directing for a limited series or anthology or movie, "Ripley" did. Happy to see that because otherwise "Ripley" didn't really get much representation. This was heavily favored going in tonight. It won as most people expected it would.
HOLMES: Yeah, I have no opinion about "Baby Reindeer" because I watched about five minutes of it and knew that it was emphatically not for me.
WELDON: Yeah.
HOLMES: But I did watch "Ripley" and I loved "Ripley, " and I was very happy about that directing win. I would've given a lot more to that based on what I know. And I definitely thought that Andrew Scott was going to win for his lead performance in that. But I understand that there was sort of a phenomenon with "Baby Reindeer" and everything.
HARRIS: Yeah, I'm with you, Linda. I have seen "Baby Reindeer." I really admired what it was trying to do. And at the same time, Andrew Scott, man, "Ripley" - so good.
WELDON: Yeah.
HARRIS: So we have a few other wins that happened tonight. Of course, we have Lamorne Morris, who won in the supporting actor in a limited or anthology series or movie category. He won for the latest season of "Fargo," where he played a state trooper. And, in fact, this made him, actually, I believe, the first performer from "Fargo" to win an Emmy. "Fargo's" won some other awards, but this is the first time that someone from the show has won for a performance. Linda, I know you had thoughts about this.
HOLMES: Yeah, I think it was a surprise. I think that he wasn't necessarily expected to win, but I really like this guy. I really liked him on "New Girl," and I think he was quite good in this. So this is just an example of somebody who I think got to do something a little bit different from what he was best known for doing, at least best known to me for doing. And I'm always happy when that pays off.
WELDON: Yeah, he was surprised. We were surprised. And I love when that happens, because if you go by the Emmy prognosticators - the whole cottage industry about prognosticating the Emmys - Jonathan Bailey was heavily favored to win this for "Fellow Travelers," and he didn't. And actually, according to Gold Derby, like, Morris was in definitely last place. So something happened. I'm glad it did. He said, when he couldn't remember all the names he wanted to name, that he would just list them on his podcast, so listen to his podcast to get that. I think that is the first time that's happened on the Emmys. So podcasts represent.
HARRIS: Podcasts represent. I love it. We also had Elizabeth Debicki who won for supporting actress in a drama series for playing Princess Diana on "The Crown." Jodie Foster won in the lead actress in the limited anthology series or movie category for "True Detective: Night Country." I had no idea that this was the first my Jodie Foster won. I guess I just assumed that she's won all the awards.
WELDON: Yep.
HARRIS: But, yeah, good for her.
WELDON: Yeah. Yeah. She got the standing O. She thanked her wife, which she hasn't necessarily done in the past, so good for her.
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JODIE FOSTER: Love of my life, Alex Hedison, my wife. Thank you so much.
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HARRIS: Yeah, we love to see it. Now, let's turn to a thing that I think we have all become very big fans of - it's the Peacock series "The Traitors," which won for outstanding reality competition program. Alan Cumming also won for outstanding host for a reality or reality competition. This was exciting. Glen, I know you have thoughts about this.
WELDON: Yeah. I mean, I like that Alan Cumming won as best reality competition host, dethroning RuPaul - who's won that title for eight years running - and also when the show itself, "The Traitors," won over "RuPaul's Drag Race." "RuPaul's Drag Race" has won five times. So it is the end of an era. It is the passing of the tiara. It does kind of feel like mom and mom are fighting, but I'm OK with that.
HARRIS: (Laughter).
WELDON: And there's something that Alan Cumming said in his acceptance speech for "The Traitors" that - he very politely but firmly pointed out that the Emmys like to stick to the same thing. And he was very appreciative that they were giving his little show a chance. It's the end of the reign, but long live the queen.
HOLMES: I was happy about "The Traitors," too. I really like that show.
WELDON: Yep.
HOLMES: I think they have done a really good job with it. And I think it's so - I love how stylish it is. And again, like, they have repeated winners quite a lot, even before "RuPaul's Drag Race." Yeah, mix it up. That's what I say.
HARRIS: Yeah, hard same. Well, before we wrap up, let's sort of take a zoom out to the telecast itself. We had Dan and Eugene Levy co-hosting together, father-son Duo. Of course, "Schitt's Creek." Linda, how did you feel about their chemistry and the sort of thankless job of being an award show host?
HOLMES: Yeah, I mean, they're a lot of fun together. They have lovely comedic chemistry. I think they were fine. I think their banter was OK. I don't think it was particularly great, but they tended to kind of get on and get off. You know, we didn't have them doing long Jimmy Kimmel at the Oscars type of segments. I thought they were fine.
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EUGENE LEVY: I love the show, and I know some of you might be expecting us to make a joke about whether "The Bear" is really a comedy. But in the true spirit of "The Bear," we will not be making any jokes.
WELDON: Yeah, this was a B plus Emmys to me. I'm a little more gung ho about it, because I think it was really dictated by the vibe of the host, which was a very "Schitt's Creek" vibe, which makes sense. It is - they were gently pointed, right? They were genial. They were charming. They were not toothless, utterly. There was some - every so often, there'd be a zinger, but they're not going for anybody's jugular. That's not the vibe. And I thought the speeches over the course of the night hit exactly the right note because people seemed legit humbled and grateful, surprised. We talked about, you know, Lamorne Morris.
He was actually surprised. If you notice because they did that thing where they flashed the lists of agents and managers on the screen, nobody read from one of those prepared lists that you fish, you know, out of your cleavage or your chest pocket, and you read it through your cheaters, right? That impulse to do that list comes in place of not wanting to skip anybody, but it always comes off a bit presumptuous. And so just having people be, like, in the moment and sincere, whether or not they were, you know, I just - that's the kind of speech I want.
HARRIS: Yeah. There was that one very lovely moment where - at the end when "Shogun" won and Hiroyuki Sanada, like, gave his thanks in Japanese...
WELDON: Right.
HARRIS: ...And it was translated. So yeah, There were definitely a lot of sweet moments. And yeah, pretty chill. There were a few moments of political statements here and there.
HOLMES: Mostly just vote.
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LIZA COLON-ZAYAS: And to all the Latinas who looking at me. Keep believing and vote. Vote for your rights.
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HOLMES: So stuff is happening, but for the most part, we were chill. There were reunions - "Happy Days," "The West Wing." Pleasant. I think we can all agree this was pleasant.
WELDON: Chill and pleasant.
HOLMES: Chill and pleasant. Exactly. I enjoyed seeing Fonzie start the jukebox, knocking it with his fist. That's a childhood memory that I treasure. So I enjoyed seeing that.
HARRIS: Yes. Well, we want to know what you think about this year's Emmy Awards. You can find us at facebook.com/pchh. That brings us to the end of our show. Glen Weldon, Linda Holmes, thanks so much for being here. This was, as always, a pleasure.
WELDON: Chill and pleasant. Thank you.
HOLMES: Thank you.
HARRIS: This episode was produced by Liz Metzger and edited by Jessica Reedy, and Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thanks so much for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris, we'll see you all tomorrow.
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