BRITTANY LUSE, HOST:
Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luse, and you're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.
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LUSE: A warning - this segment contains references to sex and sexuality. OK, y'all, is it just me, or are we in a hot mom rom-com boom? By my count, there are at least seven movies this year that feature older women falling in love with much younger men. There's "The Idea Of You," "A Family Affair," "Lonely Planet," and "Babygirl," just to name a few. But why now?
RACHEL HANDLER: I can't say exactly why, but I have many possible theories.
LUSE: That's my guest today - New York Magazine features writer Rachel Handler. She wrote about why older women are this year's most coveted object of desire.
HANDLER: You know, we're suffering from a lack of social institutions. They failed us. Do we have a sort of societal mommy issue? Is there something going on where we're running out of movie stars and we need to start creating projects for the movie stars that we do have, who are inevitably getting older as, you know, time marches forward?
LUSE: Hot moms are obviously timeless. I mean, we've seen hot moms in cinema for a long time. There was Mrs. Robinson in "The Graduate."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE GRADUATE")
ANNE BANCROFT: (As Mrs. Robinson) What do you think of me?
DUSTIN HOFFMAN: (As Benjamin Braddock) What do you mean?
BANCROFT: (As Mrs. Robinson) You've known me nearly all your life. You must have formed some opinion of me.
HANDLER: Or Stifler's mom from "American Pie."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "AMERICAN PIE 2")
EDDIE KAYE THOMAS: (As Paul Finch) Stifler's mom.
JENNIFER COOLIDGE: (As Jeanine Stifler) Hey Finchy.
THOMAS: (As Paul Finch) How did you know I was here?
COOLIDGE: (As Jeanine Stifler) I called a couple of weeks ago. Didn't Steven tell you...
LUSE: For the longest time, these hot moms were usually seen as cougars - lusty older women circling in on younger men.
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LUSE: But these new movies are very different. To start, the moms are the main subjects on journeys of self-discovery and exploration, a far cry from strategic predators. I sat down with Rachel to unpack what three of these films say about Hollywood's changing attitudes towards older women and why the category of, quote-unquote, "women's film" still feels behind the times.
Rachel Handler, we're so happy to have you. So we're here to talk about the hot mom rom-com. How do you feel about the hot mom rom-com boom?
HANDLER: Wow, that's a very big question.
LUSE: Big loaded question.
HANDLER: I wish we were getting better ones is my answer to that. I love a rom-com in general. I love a hot mom. The things together make me very happy, but I want our standards to be a bit higher. That's how I feel.
LUSE: You know what? I kind of agree with you on that. In some of the recent films that I have seen this year featuring a sexy older woman...
HANDLER: Yes.
LUSE: ...With a younger guy who's, like, really trying to get with her. I'm rubbing my right temple right now because I've seen some things that have really stressed me out. But you know what? Where there is a lot of room for growth, there also is a lot of room for discussion.
HANDLER: Of course.
LUSE: But I feel like we're kind of, like, watching cinema to try to figure out that women don't face total social death after age 40.
HANDLER: Yeah.
LUSE: I almost, like, have to, like, suppress laughter at that idea. But - I mean, but that's honestly...
HANDLER: No, I know.
LUSE: ...How society is kind of set up.
HANDLER: Right. No, and that's why I do think maybe I'm being a little bit unfair in the sense that, like, they are trying to say that, but I'm also like, yeah, they're hitting it so hard. I'm like, are you kind of, like, almost creating a new problem by being like, well, can you believe it? This woman is...
LUSE: Yeah (laughter).
HANDLER: ...Still vibrant and she still wants it, and she still gets it. Can you believe it? How irreverent is that? I'm like, OK, like, calm down.
LUSE: Yes. Yes. I want to get into some of these films, starting with two movies that are pretty similar. "A Family Affair," which we'll get to in a second, and "The Idea Of You."
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NICHOLAS GALITZINE: (As Hayes Campbell) Hi.
ANNE HATHAWAY: (As Solene Marchand) Hi. Do you mind?
GALITZINE: (As Hayes Campbell) Oh, you want to use the bathroom?
HATHAWAY: (As Solene Marchand) Yeah. Thanks.
GALITZINE: (As Hayes Campbell) Yeah.
LUSE: "The Idea Of You" follows Anne Hathaway's character, who is a beautiful and very cool mom with her own business. She's like 40 or 41 or something like that. And she falls in love with a much younger pop star played by Nicholas Galitzine. They had great chemistry.
HANDLER: They did. I love him.
LUSE: Great chemistry. I love him.
HANDLER: Yeah.
LUSE: I love Anne Hathaway.
HANDLER: Me too.
LUSE: They were so cute together.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE IDEA OF YOU")
HATHAWAY: (As Solene Marchand) What is that song?
GALITZINE: (As Hayes Campbell) It's nothing, really.
HATHAWAY: (As Solene Marchand) I like it.
GALITZINE: (As Hayes Campbell) Yeah?
HATHAWAY: (As Solene Marchand) Yeah.
LUSE: I was into their romance.
HANDLER: Me, too. I was really into it.
LUSE: And then there's "A Family Affair," which has Nicole Kidman also falling in love with a celebrity. This time, a movie star played by Zac Efron.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "A FAMILY AFFAIR")
ZAC EFRON: (As Chris Cole) Do I sense an accent, like South African? Or...
NICOLE KIDMAN: (As Brooke Harwood) Oh, no. I'm Australian.
EFRON: (As Chris Cole) Do you know Margot Robbie?
KIDMAN: (As Brooke Harwood) No, I don't.
EFRON: (As Chris Cole) I do.
LUSE: So these movies are kind of similar. What do you think they say about being a hot mom?
HANDLER: I mean, what I found most interesting in sort of the tropes that I was outlining is that, like, there was so much similarity in terms of, like, OK, she's really sort of classically Hollywood beautiful. It's Nicole Kidman, it's Anne Hathaway. It's, like, they look like themselves. They're very professionally successful.
LUSE: Yes.
HANDLER: Nicole is an author, a very, very successful author...
LUSE: Yes.
HANDLER: ...Who is sometimes paid in couture.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "A FAMILY AFFAIR")
JOEY KING: (As Zara Ford) You know how my mom writes assignments for Vogue when she can't finish a book?
LIZA KOSHY: (As Eugenie) Yeah.
KING: (As Zara Ford) Vogue does not pay very well, but they do give a lot of swag.
LUSE: (As Eugenie) Whoa.
KING: (As Zara Ford) And she never wears any of it.
LUSE: Right. She had a closet full of couture.
HANDLER: She's, like, when they can't pay me, they give me couture. I'm like, what?
LUSE: What job is this? Who are you writing for?
HANDLER: (Laughter).
LUSE: What are you talking about (Laughter)?
HANDLER: That was specifically a movie for aliens.
LUSE: (Laughter).
HANDLER: But I didn't think (laughter) - I hope they liked it.
LUSE: I hope they liked it. I hope they did.
HANDLER: These women are, like, successful. They're wealthy. Their whole lives are together, except they have this, you know, aching pit at the center of their souls that can only be filled by, you know, a famous man 15 years younger than them. And I thought that was really - it was fascinating. A lot of, like, the younger woman rom-coms are like, she's a hot mess. Can't get it together. If only someone could...
LUSE: Come and...
HANDLER: Come along...
LUSE: Exactly. Get her together.
HANDLER: ...And, like, clean this woman up. Yeah, so I thought that was, like, an interesting switch. It's, like, she doesn't need him, but she wants him.
LUSE: She wants him.
HANDLER: Yeah.
LUSE: I also found it so interesting in those films that, like, they just act like no one would ever ask them out.
HANDLER: Yes.
LUSE: Like, when we first see Nicole Kidman's character, she's this really fabulous writer. She's got this huge, gorgeous home. But when we see her, she's, like, snapping green beans or shelling...
HANDLER: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Peas or something like that. And I'm just like, what? Like, she's snapping peas or something for her grown daughter to come home and eat dinner. And I'm like, OK, you mean to tell me that a woman who looks like Nicole Kidman with all this money, she didn't have any friends to be with.
HANDLER: No.
LUSE: She doesn't have a pottery class that she wants to do. She doesn't have a trip to take. There's no other men asking her out.
HANDLER: No.
LUSE: And in "The Idea Of You," which is interesting because they appeared to have, I think, the narrowest age gap of all of the films. But the whole movie, Solene - Solene...
HANDLER: Oh, my God, Solene.
LUSE: Solene, Anne Hathaway's character.
HANDLER: Her grandparents are French (laughter).
LUSE: Her grandparents...
HANDLER: Solene.
LUSE: ...Are French. Solene. The whole time, she's like, oh, you're too young for me. I'm so old. I'm too old for him.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE IDEA OF YOU")
HATHAWAY: (As Solene Marchand) I'm too old for you.
GALITZINE: (As Hayes Campbell) No, you're not.
LUSE: OK, I mean, I knew what we were getting into...
HANDLER: Right.
LUSE: ...With the film. Like, I get it.
HANDLER: Yeah. We get it. I know. She's like, I just can't. Also, there's a scene in both of those movies where they, like, stand in front of the mirror, looking amazing, but, like, pouting at the horror...
LUSE: Yeah.
HANDLER: ...Of their - this is what I'm saying. It's, like, we don't need to keep reinforcing this point.
LUSE: Why do you think that those films spend so much time kind of, like, focused on that aspect of these romances?
HANDLER: I do feel like there are a lot of movies, especially in this genre, that, like, a women's film, you know, that are just so deeply stuck in a world that doesn't actually exist anymore. And I agree that there should be an element of fantasy to a rom-com, of course, but, like, more often than not, it feels like delusion and it feels like regression and it feels like - and I don't mean to pick on rom-coms. I think this is a problem with a lot of movies. I think part of it is probably, like, studio notes, right? They're like, we need more conflict. We need more stakes. And they sort of manufacture that as the conflict. It's, like, the lazy way in. I also think maybe they just assume that an audience would be like, well, why aren't they talking about - you know, I think a lot of times a script or a film will assume that the audience is stupid.
(LAUGHTER)
HANDLER: You know, that's how I feel whenever I watch Netflix. I'm like, you think I'm an idiot.
LUSE: (Laughter).
HANDLER: You think I'm dumb as hell. Like, I think the sort of, like, the Marvelification of film has created a sense of an audience that wants something dumbed down, that wants something easy, doesn't want to be challenged. And I don't know if that's true. I just think that's what, like, the studio or the people in charge assume.
LUSE: I mean, my husband is a film editor, and we're watching "A Family Affair." And I'm looking at Nicole Kidman...
HANDLER: Yes, I know.
LUSE: ...Kathy Bates, Zac Efron and Joey King - four talented people.
HANDLER: Yes.
LUSE: They're having this conversation that is so goofy.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "A FAMILY AFFAIR")
KATHY BATES: (As Leila Ford) It was pitch black, so I figured the only way out was to go through the desert.
EFRON: (As Chris Cole) Wait, without water?
BATES: (As Leila Ford) Yeah. Nary a drop.
EFRON: (As Chris Cole) Are you...
BATES: (As Leila Ford) It's true.
LUSE: And my husband noted that he's like, oh. He was like, well, this is set - like, the camera setup is the same as, like, "The View."
HANDLER: Yeah.
LUSE: He was like, they've got three cameras. They have an A camera, B camera, C camera. It's, like, shot like a sitcom.
HANDLER: Yes.
LUSE: He's like, if you have Nicole Kidman (laughter), why would you do that?
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LUSE: OK. Coming up - we're done with the hot mom movie bombs, and we're going to open up the good stuff. What hot mom rom-com has us ready to risk it all? Stick around.
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LUSE: All right, let's talk about another movie that wasn't a disaster - "Between The Temples," which is a movie I loved.
HANDLER: Oh, loved.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BETWEEN THE TEMPLES")
CAROL KANE: (As Carla Kessler) Are you OK?
JASON SCHWARTZMAN: (As Ben Gottlieb) Can you help me?
KANE: (As Carla Kessler) Maybe. Give me your hand. Give me your hand. Come on.
LUSE: So it's one of my favorite movies of the year, actually.
HANDLER: Me, too.
LUSE: It's a movie about a widow in her 70s, played by the fantastic Carol Kane, and she wants to get bat mitzvah'd because she didn't have one when she was younger. And she ends up finding love with a much younger but still 40-something-year-old Hebrew school teacher, played by Jason Schwartzman.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BETWEEN THE TEMPLES")
KANE: (As Carla Kessler) Can we have a shotgun bat mitzvah?
SCHWARTZMAN: (As Ben Gottlieb) Oh. I can look into it.
KANE: (As Carla Kessler) Really?
SCHWARTZMAN: (As Ben Gottlieb) Mm hmm.
LUSE: "Between The Temples." Beautiful film.
HANDLER: Beautiful.
LUSE: Carol Kane and Jason Schwartzman have genuine, deep chemistry. And I felt like they connected because they had things in common.
HANDLER: Right.
LUSE: Like, they're both widows or widowers.
HANDLER: Yeah.
LUSE: And they also, like, had shared interests to, like...
HANDLER: Yes. Yeah.
LUSE: ...The things that...
HANDLER: At least one shared interest.
LUSE: Exactly.
HANDLER: (Laughter).
LUSE: The things that cause people to fall in love with real life.
HANDLER: Yeah, exactly.
LUSE: I was like, oh, this is - the person who made this maybe has been on a couple of dates...
HANDLER: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Or met other people before.
HANDLER: (Laughter) Right. Yeah, "Between The Temples" was really good and almost doesn't deserve to be in the company of these other films. I think it's, like, a delicious movie from start to finish.
LUSE: Delicious.
HANDLER: Yeah, I could not not be friends with Carol Kane and not fall in love with her.
LUSE: No. Are you kidding me? And that's the other thing I'll say that the film does really well is that I remember watching it and feeling like, at least within the world of the film and through the eyes of the filmmaker, it was like, well, who wouldn't be in love with this woman?
HANDLER: Yes.
LUSE: As opposed to showing you a very conventionally attractive young-looking Anne Hathaway...
HANDLER: Yeah.
LUSE: ...And being - like, the audience needs for her character to ask the heavens, why, oh, why...
HANDLER: (Laughter).
LUSE: ...Does this young, hot guy like me, as opposed to - yeah, I felt like in "Between The Temples," the gaze of the film was looking at Carol Kane - yeah, this really gorgeous, fantastic woman in her 70s - and being like, I mean, can you blame him?
HANDLER: Obviously.
LUSE: Yeah.
HANDLER: No, that's exactly right.
LUSE: Yeah.
HANDLER: And that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's like, even though the conversation does turn to age, it's still an inevitability that he would fall in love with her.
LUSE: Exactly.
HANDLER: Yeah.
LUSE: I mean, I left the movie being like, I'm risking it all for her.
HANDLER: (Laughter) And I do think that there - what's missing, too, is I do think that, like, none of these movies are kind of, like, leaning into the eroticism of that inherent dynamic.
LUSE: Very good point. It's interesting because, I mean, when I feel like films do lean into the eroticism of that dynamic, that's when you get Stifler's mom, played by Jennifer Coolidge.
HANDLER: Oh, right. It's like a joke.
LUSE: And it's like a joke. It's not typically something that is treated very seriously...
HANDLER: No.
LUSE: ...Like, whether it's the woman's desires are not serious or the man's desires or attraction to this woman cannot be serious.
HANDLER: Exactly, exactly. Right.
LUSE: And I imagine that there are some people who probably like the idea of getting with someone, you know, older.
HANDLER: Of course. I mean, it's a feature, not a bug. Like, hello.
LUSE: (Laughter).
HANDLER: Come on.
LUSE: Exactly. That's a very, very, very good point - that the eroticism in that mixed-age dynamic doesn't really come through in movies like this...
HANDLER: No.
LUSE: ...Very often. I will say one of the things that's interesting about these films - and you pointed this out in your piece - all the leads are white. Why do you think that is?
HANDLER: How much time do you have?
(LAUGHTER)
HANDLER: Why do I think that is? I mean, because it's like, again, it goes back to this idea of it being, like, the safest, most anodyne, inoffensive - everything else has to be - like, the studios are like, oh, well, we - it simply has to be, like, a thin, white, rich woman who has a career. Like, it all fits into that sort of, like, horribly racist, misogynistic industry that we know so well.
(LAUGHTER)
LUSE: I mean, I think that's obviously a part of it. But also, something else that I have been thinking about is, like, in my experience, Black women have less age anxiety than white women do.
HANDLER: Oh.
LUSE: Also, like, a lot of Black actresses, like, especially Gen X, I think they're all in their, like, mid- to late-50s, and they've just stopped playing, like, 35-year-olds...
HANDLER: Yeah. Yeah.
LUSE: ...Like, just stopped playing - like, Taraji P. Henson is in her mid-50s. She just stopped playing 35-year-olds, like, two years ago.
HANDLER: Absolutely. This is so interesting, and you're so right.
LUSE: The sort of, like, I feel so insecure because I'm so old thing, that's just not something that comes up in my life or in...
HANDLER: That is so interesting.
LUSE: Does that come up a lot? I'm sorry - asking you, resident white woman (laughter).
HANDLER: Let me check in...
LUSE: Does that come up a lot (laughter)?
HANDLER: ...On the group chat. No, I mean, not with my friends. I don't - that's what I'm saying, that these movies feel so foreign to me in that just implicit messaging. It's like, that's not the world that I live in. I have friends who are over 40. We're both approaching that era.
LUSE: Yeah.
HANDLER: No one has ever been like, I'm too old to, like, be wanted. Like, everyone's out here, like, you know, hooking up with younger dudes and having a ball. Like...
LUSE: Yeah. With another age-gap romance starring Nicole Kidman, "Babygirl," coming out this December, there is an opportunity for something a little different in the hot mom rom-com or hot mom - whatever - hot mom (laughter) film canon, I suppose. You saw...
HANDLER: Yeah.
LUSE: ..."Babygirl." Do you feel like it is going to give us a little something different?
HANDLER: Absolutely.
LUSE: Oh.
HANDLER: I mean, I wouldn't describe it as a rom-com necessarily.
LUSE: It doesn't seem like a rom-com from the trailer.
HANDLER: But it's sexy. It's very sexy. And the issue is not necessarily, like, her age. It's more, like, her kinks, which is very interesting.
LUSE: Well, it also seems like it's going to play with power.
HANDLER: Yes.
LUSE: I think that there's an assumption sometimes in these films that because women's power traditionally and perhaps societally is expected to be derived from fertility and youth and beauty that when you age, those things in their conventional sense diminish, and so then your power diminishes. But it seems like they're actually going to highlight the fact that she has acquired power and that she has power...
HANDLER: Yeah.
LUSE: ...Which I feel like is also missing from a lot of these films.
HANDLER: Absolutely. I'm very interested in that idea - where a woman's power comes from and how that can be erotic and not a problem (laughter).
LUSE: How it can be erotic and not a problem.
HANDLER: And for me, I'm thinking like, OK, what else do I want? And the first thing I thought of, which is a movie that I do mention this piece kind of tongue in cheek, is the movie "Birth" with Nicole Kidman.
LUSE: I just watched that...
HANDLER: I'm like, more "Birth."
LUSE: ...For the first time a couple of weeks ago (laughter).
HANDLER: Oh, you want a woman to be viable only in the eyes of a younger man. How about a child...
LUSE: "Birth" (laughter)...
HANDLER: ...Who's her husband reincarnated?
LUSE: A 10-year-old that says that he's her husband reincarnated.
(LAUGHTER)
LUSE: What about that?
HANDLER: What about that? Yeah.
LUSE: Well, Nicole Kidman - I'm like, girl, maybe she should come in here. Everyone would to be like, what's up?
HANDLER: We need her on this.
LUSE: Yeah, we need her.
HANDLER: We need her.
LUSE: I'm like, Nicole Kidman, give me your...
HANDLER: (Laughter).
LUSE: Between "Birth," "A Family Affair" and...
HANDLER: "Babygirl."
LUSE: ..."Babygirl," I mean, what it really is is a tryptic.
HANDLER: It is. That's a film series they should be showing at Metrograph.
LUSE: (Laughter).
HANDLER: Metrograph, call us.
LUSE: Please call us. We want a program - Nicole Kidman's age-gap romances.
HANDLER: And then the last one is "The Hours."
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LUSE: Oh, my gosh. Rachel, it is always just a pleasure to have you on this show. You are just so brilliant, and I am so glad every time we get to talk about movies with you (ph).
HANDLER: Me too, me too. It's so fun.
LUSE: That was Rachel Handler, features writer for New York Magazine.
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LUSE: This episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE was produced by...
BARTON GIRDWOOD, BYLINE: Barton Girdwod.
ALEXIS WILLIAMS, BYLINE: Alexis Williams.
LIAM MCBAIN, BYLINE: Liam McBain.
COREY ANTONIO ROSE, BYLINE: Corey Antonio Rose.
LUSE: This episode was edited by...
JESSICA PLACZEK, BYLINE: Jessica Placzek.
LUSE: Our executive producer is....
JASMINE ROMERO, BYLINE: Jasmine Romero.
LUSE: Our VP of programming is...
YOLANDA SANGWENI, BYLINE: Yolanda Sangweni.
LUSE: All right. That's all for this episode of IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Brittany Luse. Talk soon.
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