Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
GLEN WELDON, HOST:
In Netflix's gritty, brutal western series "American Primeval," Betty Gilpin plays a woman determined to get herself and her son across the frontier. But along the way, they find themselves caught up in a brewing war between the federal government and a violent Mormon militia. A gruff guide, played by Taylor Kitsch, might be of some help, but the land is rife with violent factions with competing claims to the blood-soaked soil. I'm Glen Weldon, and today we're talking about "American Primeval" on POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
WELDON: Joining me today is Sam Yellowhorse Kesler, a producer for NPR's Planet Money. Hey, Sam.
SAM YELLOWHORSE KESLER, BYLINE: Hi, Glen. Thanks for having me. I'm sure this simple interaction between us will end peacefully and with no sudden and brutal violence.
WELDON: Oh, I wouldn't put money on that. Also with us is Vulture TV critic Roxana Hadadi. Hey, Roxana.
ROXANA HADADI: Hello.
WELDON: Let's get to it. In "American Primeval," Betty Gilpin plays Sara, a woman who hopes to reunite herself and her son with her husband, who set himself up in a town on the other side of the Utah territory in 1857. But the frontier is a lawless and violent place. She's got some allies in the form of a sympathetic settler who's established a way station for those headed West. He's played by the great Shea Whigham. Taylor Kitsch plays a gruff loner with a dark past who reluctantly - annoyingly reluctantly - agrees to guide Sara...
KESLER: (Laughter).
WELDON: ...And her son on their journey.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "AMERICAN PRIMEVAL")
BETTY GILPIN: (As Sara Rowell) I am aware that our delayed arrival has helped create this situation. Now, all that matters is whether you are willing to take on the position of our guide or not.
TAYLOR KITSCH: (As Isaac) I ain't got business in crooks.
WELDON: No, he doesn't. It won't be easy. Utah governor Brigham Young, played by Kim Coates, is pulling the strings of a violent Mormon militia determined to keep the federal government out of the territory. Sara and co are caught in the crossfire, alongside a group of unfortunate Mormon settlers. Throw in bounty hunters, fur trappers, renegade members of the Shoshone Nation, wolves, bears, frostbite and gangrene, and Sara and her son will be tested in an unrelentingly brutal fashion before the six-episode series wraps up. "American Primeval" was written by Mark L. Smith, who co-wrote the Leonardo DiCaprio film "The Revenant," and you can tell. It is streaming on Netflix now. Roxana, you reviewed this for Vulture. What'd you think?
HADADI: I have mixed thoughts on this. Like, on the one hand, I am always very drawn to a America bad story. That's, like, very much, you know, like, my catnip. I'm like, you know what? That's correct. And something that I really liked about this is that it is not a Taylor Sheridan project. It is a neo-western that does not overlap with "Yellowstone" or "1923" or "Landman" or any of the other sort of shows that he has created within his own universe. It is doing something very different from that.
I talked about in my review that this is really, like, three westerns in one series, and I think that certain subplots are more effective than others. I think all of the Mormon stuff is really fascinating. It has been covered by Jon Krakauer in his nonfiction book "Under The Banner Of Heaven." So I think if you've read that...
WELDON: Right.
HADADI: ...Or if you'd watched the FX adaptation of that, some of this is sort of familiar. But I appreciated, like, the we're-really-going-to-tell-you-how-bad-things-were, because of this religious faction. I think Shea Whigham, great. Kim Coates, great. The other subplots, I think, are varying in a narrative singularity, let's put it that way.
WELDON: (Laughter).
HADADI: But the Mormon stuff, the Shea Whigham stuff, I'm very pro.
WELDON: Yeah. I mean, the way this is structured, it is truly an ensemble piece. You're going to be drawn to certain things more than others. Sam, where did you come down?
KESLER: Yeah, pretty similarly. Like, I was a little bit mixed on this whole thing, but I think I came out feeling like this wasn't particularly my thing. This wasn't really for me. And yeah, there was different scenes, different plot lines that my ears perked up a little bit more for, like when Shea Whigham's on screen or like when Dane DeHaan's on screen. And that kind of was, like - I generally did not have a lot of positive feelings for this show, but I felt like the redeeming quality behind it was that this was going to contribute to the reels of a lot of actors that I really like. You know, when I'm starting this out, I'm like, that actor looks familiar. Who's that? And then I realize, oh, my God, that's Dane DeHaan. I haven't seen...
WELDON: Right.
KESLER: ...Dane DeHaan in anything forever. And so I really was just, like, glad to see him in this, and same with Shea Whigham and same with Betty Gilpin. And I did love just how much, like, the show was a hundred and ten percent of everything. Like, it never for a moment lets up.
WELDON: Yep.
HADADI: Yeah.
KESLER: I just really thought that, like, that was, like, a major redeeming quality in this show that otherwise wasn't exactly my thing.
WELDON: Right. Well, you mentioned Dane DeHaan. He plays Jacob Pratt. He is one of those very unfortunate Mormon settlers in the Mormon settler storyline. You know, I kind of echo some of what you guys said. I found this engrossing. I found this involving. I found this compelling. It's hard for me to say like, when something is as dark and as unrelentingly bleak and violent as this is, but I got sucked into the storytelling here. Partially, mostly - again, mostly because of that Mormon storyline. Because the Mormon militia disguises itself as Indigenous people and massacres a bunch of settlers, including the caravan that Dane DeHaan is in. And then, when one of those settlers survives, the militia takes him along as they hunt down the Native Americans that he thinks were responsible. That - in terms of storytelling, that is just layered. That is layers...
HADADI: Yeah.
WELDON: ...Of evil. That's a turducken, a flaky croissant of evil. And it's a question of how they will get found out, when they will get found out. That is suspenseful. Do I think that narrative trap was sprung with the same kind of care that it was set up? No, but still...
(LAUGHTER)
WELDON: ...I still - episodes and episodes went by where I was just really, like, in that tension. Shea Whigham, we've mentioned, I'm a sucker for, and he's got a part here that seems to be written for him.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "AMERICAN PRIMEVAL")
SHEA WHIGHAM: (As Jim Bridger) I've grown mighty partial to this location, and I've also grown way too old and beat down to find another this late in the day. So I'd imagine a price that would make me comfortable would be one that would put a real painful burn up your ass, governor.
HADADI: So good.
WELDON: I mean, it's the closest thing the show gets to humor...
HADADI: Yeah.
WELDON: ...Right?
HADADI: Yes.
WELDON: Betty Gilpin. I'm a sucker for Betty Gilpin. Did I get tired of the way she was always wrong and...
HADADI: Yes.
WELDON: ...Always for the same reason, which is that her soft-hearted, big-city wages aren't made for the cruelty and treachery of the frontier. I get it, right?
HADADI: Yeah.
WELDON: I'm not complaining about it, but I think that was a lesson that she would have learned a lot faster than she does here.
KESLER: For the first episode, get out of the way. Yeah, and then...
WELDON: Exactly. It's like...
HADADI: And there's so much stuff that, like, brought her to this place before, right? That storyline, I mean, like, I love Taylor Kitsch. I will always - I'm going to defend "John Carter" every day of my life.
WELDON: OK. You're the one. Good for you.
HADADI: You know, that is the sort of most straightforward. We got two hot people, and they're just going to fight for six episodes (laughter) until an abrupt resolution. I wish that storyline had felt more carefully considered. Or to your point, Glen, like, at least more interestingly set up, I guess. I don't know...
WELDON: Yeah.
HADADI: ...How we could have fixed...
WELDON: Yeah.
HADADI: ...That one. But it's like, I really like watching these two people on screen. I like watching them be sarcastic with each other. I just needed more from it, I think.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "AMERICAN PRIMEVAL")
KITSCH: (As Isaac) This is not where we need to go.
GILPIN: (As Sara Rowell) What? What does that mean?
KITSCH: (As Isaac) It means whatever you find down there, it's not going to be good for anyone.
GILPIN: (As Sara Rowell) What about her?
KITSCH: (As Isaac) What about her?
GILPIN: (As Sara Rowell) She just said her family was down there.
KITSCH: (As Isaac) If her family was down there, they'd be screaming through the trees.
GILPIN: (As Sara Rowell) Isaac, we have to at least see for ourselves.
KITSCH: (As Isaac) Leave her.
WELDON: I'm going to say the reason that that plotline didn't work as well as the others is the Taylor Kitsch of it all. I mean, like...
HADADI: Aw.
WELDON: ...I found that character...
HADADI: Yeah, the character.
WELDON: ...One note. I - you know, I love to hate the Jai Courtney bounty hunter character. I loved the creepy fur trappers who seem to be wearing human skin, I think. But the Taylor Kitsch character was just - he starts and ends on the same place, which is gruff, but, you know, reluctantly...
KESLER: The sad man, dead wife. Yeah.
HADADI: Yeah.
WELDON: Exactly.
HADADI: All the character tropes you expect. Yeah.
WELDON: Exactly. Beat for beat, right? That's the thing that kind of kicked me out of that. Now, since we have decided to cover this show, the reviews have come out, and many of them, not all, but many of them, don't seem to be on board with this show's very blunt depictions of violence, which there is - to be warned - a hell of a lot of.
HADADI: Yeah.
WELDON: Or its very dark view of humanity. I don't know. I found the violence to be periodically appropriate, shall we say? If I'm watching a show about this time of history, I should be seeing this kind of violence, just to be honest. As far as the show's sensibility about human beings, well, it kind of lines up with mine. I found myself just sort of nodding along, going, yeah, that would happen. That's what that guy would do.
HADADI: People are bad.
WELDON: Did you guys get kicked up by any of that?
KESLER: Only a little bit, in the sense that I was just like, aren't people supposed to be, like, forming societies out here? Aren't people like, actually, just, like, having normal jobs at times and, like, building things? But they just seem to be like, no, they're mostly killing each other. Like, if you...
WELDON: Yeah.
KESLER: ...You know, three people enter, four people die. Like, I don't know how that math is exactly mapping in terms of, like, the grand, you know, American project. I don't know if that was exactly how things would have worked out back then. And there was, like, a little bit of, like, you know, bullets aren't free. Like, come on, guys.
WELDON: Yeah.
KESLER: Like, you probably would not shoot that dead person five more times just to be sure that they're dead. Like, let's conserve a little bit here.
HADADI: It worked for me because I think, you know, why I always go back to something like "Deadwood" is to your point, Sam. It is about, like, what does it actually take to build a society. And what I think was really interesting for me here is that, like, the Mormons have a society. Like Kim Coates as Brigham Young, I think is, like, very fascinating. And there's this one scene where, in one moment, he orders, you know, like, the assassination of this woman and the massacre of the Shoshone. And then, like, 30 seconds later, he sees a Mormon family with a bunch of young daughters, and he's going over and, like, kissing them on the forehead and being like, have more.
That to me, like, that society exists already, right? And the show is saying, like, that's what America became, which I don't think is from my very cynical, pessimistic perspective (laughter). I'm like, oh, yeah, that checks out. So I do think there are, like, some very deliberate things here about, like, what kind of people ended up surviving in this place. But again, that's why I think, like, the Mormon storyline worked the most. It felt most connected to what the show is trying to say about, like, what we ended up doing with this country.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "AMERICAN PRIMEVAL")
KIM COATES: (As Brigham Young) For not today, brothers, not tomorrow, but someday in the future, our territory and this entire American continent will be Zion.
WELDON: Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, Roxana, because, as you also noted in your Vulture review, the thing that sets this apart - maybe the only thing - the thing that sets apart is the very explicit way it establishes that religion played a central role in the...
HADADI: Yeah.
WELDON: ...Notion of manifest destiny, American exceptionalism. And that is what's responsible for all this bloodshed we're seeing. I mean, like, that is to tackle that head-on, and, you know, not subtly (laughter), but absolutely head-on seems to me, like, OK. And also there's this other thing that dramatically, when you establish a character who is so brutally evil, this is something the Greeks knew, seeing them get their comeuppance as violently as it inevitably happens on the show. That is just viscerally satisfying in every sense of the term.
KESLER: One thing that I really did like about this show was that just I felt like there was a good deal of, like, cross-pollination between all of these, like, warring factions where...
WELDON: Yeah.
KESLER: ...There were, like, backstabbers and double-crossers, and people - you know, there was natives who are working with the Mormons. Of course, the Mormons, like, pretending to be Native American themselves, but also, like, forging these alliances so that way they could then, like, stab people in the back anyhow.
HADADI: I also, to that point, I am very glad that then there wasn't a romance within that cross-pollination because I was very worried that it was going to be, like, this nice Mormon lady falls in love with this noble Native American warrior. I was very concerned...
WELDON: Yeah.
HADADI: ...About that.
WELDON: They were setting that up.
HADADI: Yeah, there's sort of this, like, recognition, I think, rather of, like, what do both of these groups face from, like, the white Mormon threat? But I did like that it didn't then plunge into - and then they kiss.
KESLER: Yeah.
HADADI: I'm glad there was no kiss.
KESLER: Yeah.
HADADI: Let me just put it that way.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "AMERICAN PRIMEVAL")
SAURA LIGHTFOOT-LEON: (As Abish Pratt) How many must die to avenge all you have lost?
JEREMIAH BITSUI: (As Grey Fox, speaking Shoshoni).
DEREK HINKEY: (As Red Feather, speaking Shoshoni).
BITSUI: (As Grey Fox) As many as his God tells him to.
LIGHTFOOT-LEON: (As Abish Pratt) Your God tells you to kill the whites? Whites believe their God tells them to kill you.
WELDON: It seemed to me like there was a lot of that edging up to a cliche and then backing away from it, particularly in the depictions of Indigenous people. There's something going on in the show with the depiction of Indigenous people 'cause there was an Indigenous culture consultant, Julie O'Keefe, who also worked on "Killers Of The Flower Moon," which I know only because it wasn't so very long ago that that would not have even been considered. So - but the character of Red Feather, the character played by Derek Hinkey. He's a Shoshone warrior who is always couched as the renegade, right? He wants war.
Unlike Winter Bird, who's played by Irene Bedard. So she's not getting slotted into the warrior slot, but she is getting slotted into the wise, sympathetic elder role, which is stereotypical in a different way. And I feel like the show is aching to include Native Americans, but it keeps pushing them to the sidelines, their plot points. I mean, if you want to go look for the most egregious example, they bring an Indigenous character into the main group of protagonists. This is Two Moons, played by Shawnee Pourier, but they make it so she can't speak. They literally do not give her a voice. I felt the good intentions, but I also felt a little ham-fisted fumbling along the way.
KESLER: Yeah. It was particularly egregious, yeah, just to, like, literally give her no voice. And then, like, she would kind of, like, recede into the background in scenes.
WELDON: Yeah.
KESLER: And they use that to good effect at one point, where, like, the main trio of Betty Gilpin, her son and Taylor Kitsch get kidnapped. And I'm like, oh, my God, how are they going to get out of this one? And then, of course, the character that I completely forgot about. And I can't tell if...
WELDON: Yeah.
KESLER: ...That was intentional or not. The whole time I was supposed to be sitting there being like, oh, but they - I forgot about Two Moons. They forgot about Two Moons. Like, the audience is going to forget about them because she literally doesn't have any character or anything. And I was kind of expecting - yeah, like, you talked about, like, leaning into a cliche and then backing away from it. Like, you might have expected her to be, like, the Indigenous, like, guide to the region...
WELDON: Right.
HADADI: Yeah.
KESLER: ...Where, like, she knows, like, the lay of the land and knows, like, all of the ancient practices to get, you know, them safely to their place. Like, one time she, like, has, like, input into, like, a healing thing that, like, does end up working out. But it's, like, she's never actually, like, depicted as, like, particularly knowledgeable about the region. And I'm just, like, always bewildered watching this. Like, why do they have her? You know, I feel bad saying that.
WELDON: Right.
KESLER: But, like, why did they have her there? Like, she's not contributing very much. And Taylor Kitsch is not the kind of character to have, like, dead weight. I just couldn't find, like, any redeeming quality in her. She was just, like, there, and sometimes contributing to the plot, but very, very sparsely.
HADADI: The show does leave you with that - those recurring moments of ambiguity where you sort of have to decide. You're like, is it good that she's here because at least she's part of the group? And then, she gets to help fight off the wolves who bash their way into the cabin...
WELDON: Yeah.
HADADI: ...In one of the most climactic scenes. Like, is it good that we didn't make her this, like, all-knowing, sort of communicative force, or should they have done more? And I do - I don't know. I guess I sort of respect that the show has some of those pressure and tension points that, like, make you, as an audience member, decide. Maybe I'm doing too much forgiving of the show's tactics (laughter). But I like that there are those messy parts that we sort of have to, like, you know, give quality to on our own terms.
KESLER: Yeah. And this is like my soapbox for the episode is that, like, there is this, like, yeah, kind of messy sensation throughout the thing of, like, well, the Indigenous people are being portrayed as, like, violent savages who are, like, conniving and backstabbing and, you know, slit throats and torture people, and, you know, yeah, like, have violent raids. But that's everyone. That's everyone on that show.
HADADI: Yeah.
KESLER: Yeah.
WELDON: That's right (laughter).
KESLER: Like, it was messy to kind of think about, like, well, are they doing an injustice by portraying Native Americans the same way that, you know, a lot of westerns do, or is it just, like, they're just treating them exactly the same as literally every other character on the show? Like, I almost was, like, curious to, like, know, like, what a Mormon person would think about, like, the depiction of Mormons in this...
WELDON: Yeah, right?
KESLER: ...As, like, violent polygamists, yeah, who are, like, trying to convert everyone. It was really - I don't know. While watching this, I was, like, needling through, like, yeah, like, the representation is fairly accurate in terms of, like, costume and, you know, the different tribes and how, you know, the different cultures. But then, is that responsible or not in, like, this show that already has, like, literally no, you know, redeemable characters?
WELDON: Right. And one thing that happens to a lot of those irredeemable characters is that they die off, such that I feel like this limited series is limited.
HADADI: Yeah.
WELDON: I think they cleared the call sheet. I don't think there's too many people left. It would be a different series. But in 2025, it feels good to have a six-episode, limited series that tells a story with a beginning, middle and an end. Right?
KESLER: Yeah.
HADADI: I'm going to respect...
KESLER: Yeah.
HADADI: ...That structure. I mean, we could - look, Shea Whigham does just, like, walk off into the wilderness.
KESLER: Shea Whigham spin-off, yeah.
WELDON: Yeah. I mean, I would see a Shea Whigham spin-off.
HADADI: All of us would be like, let's watch Shea Whigham's character build a new fort. I would watch that (laughter)
WELDON: Yep (laughter). Yep. Like Age of Empires, just watching him, like...
HADADI: Yeah.
WELDON: ...You know, build a fort, build a fort, build a fort.
KESLER: Bridger's Place. That'd be - yeah. That's be it, yeah.
WELDON: Yeah (laughter).
KESLER: The TV show. The sitcom TV show. Like "Cheers," but it's a fort (laughter).
WELDON: I mean, there are Netflix people listening, so let's hope.
KESLER: Yeah.
WELDON: Yeah. We're - I mean, there's a lot to recommend here. There's a lot that we're scratching our head about. But we want to know what you think about "American Primeval." Find us at Facebook at facebook.com/pchh. And that brings us to the end of our show. Roxana Hadadi, Sam Yellowhorse Kesler, thank you so much for being here.
HADADI: Thank you.
KESLER: Thank you so much.
WELDON: And just a reminder that signing up for POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR+ is a great way to support our show and public radio, and you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor-free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org/happyhour or visit the link in our show notes.
This episode was produced by Liz Metzger and Lennon Sherburne and edited by Mike Katzif. Our supervising producer is Jessica Reedy, and Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to POP CULTURE HAPPY HOUR from NPR. I'm Glen Weldon, and we'll see you all tomorrow.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
Copyright © 2025 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.