Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
Review
Pop Culture Happy Hour
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LINDA HOLMES: The reality show, The Traitors, now in its third season, continues to be a delightful mix of treachery, foolishness, good and bad strategy, and Alan Cumming's outfits.
STEPHEN THOMPSON: But with the way they're ripping through our supply of reality stars, are they going to run out of good casting ideas? No. No, they are not, because we are here with some fresh inspiration. I'm Stephen Thompson.
HOLMES: And I'm Linda Holmes. And today, on NPR's Pop Culture Happy Hour, we are fantasy casting the next season of The Traitors.
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HOLMES: Joining us today are our fellow co-hosts, Aisha Harris-- hello, Aisha.
AISHA HARRIS: Here and ready for murder, my friends.
[LAUGHTER]
HOLMES: And also Glen Weldon. Hello, Glen.
GLEN WELDON: Hi. Greetings, Linda Holmes.
HOLMES: Very good. I appreciate the fact that both of you went with the accent.
WELDON: Went at the accent.
HOLMES: Yes, yes, yes.
WELDON: Hurled ourselves against the accent.
HOLMES: I love it. So The Traitors exists not only in the United States, but in several other countries as well. It streams here on Peacock. And the cast this year included 23 celebrities, including four Survivors, four Real Housewives, representatives of The Bachelor franchise, Tom Sandoval from [FRENCH] Vanderpump Rules, a former WWE wrestler, Zac Efron's brother, Britney Spears' ex-husband. And-- I am not making this up-- the aristocrat!
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HOLMES: Host Alan Cumming takes them through a game where a small number of secretly appointed traitors among them meets in private to figuratively murder members of the rest of the group, and the whole group meets together to banish somebody who they think is a traitor. So basically, the traitors are trying to keep it a secret that they're traitors, and the rest of the players who are faithfuls are trying to identify and banish the traitors, if that makes sense. Not every version of The Traitors around the world relies exclusively on celebrities or celebrity-ish product, but it's not really surprising that that is how we do it here. In celebration of that fact, we decided that we would get together and each suggest someone that we would cast if we were in charge of putting together the group for a future season. Stephen, I'm going to start with you. Who did you choose to go on The Traitors?
THOMPSON: OK, so thinking about this assignment made me think about the secret ingredients that make The Traitors great. It's not just dazzling traitor play. It's not just master strategists from other reality shows. It's not people who turn out to be great at strategy that you wouldn't expect to be great at strategy, like Pilot Pete from The Bachelor or Zac Efron's brother this season. It's not just people reading social cues and setting strategic traps. Part of why I love The Traitors is that they to also cast people who have no idea what's going on.
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THOMPSON: As much as I love watching someone like Cirie Fields from Survivor or Pilot Pete from The Bachelor turn out to be great at The Traitors, I also love watching people where you're basically watching someone lose at tic-tac-toe against a simple barnyard chicken.
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THOMPSON: My version of fantasy casting The Traitors is to tap into America's strategic oaf preserve to find the next Ryan Lochte, the next Tom Sandoval, the next mostly harmless lunk who's going to bug his eyes out and be like, I knew Boston Rob was a traitor, after, like six where Boston Rob was obviously a traitor.
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HOLMES: Yes.
THOMPSON: So my pick, next in line from the strategic oaf preserve-- former NFL tight end Rob Gronkowski.
HARRIS: Oh.
WELDON: OK. All right.
HARRIS: I have no idea who that is, but I trust you.
HOLMES: That's a good-- yeah.
THOMPSON: Basically, Gronk's whole deal-- you've seen him in commercials and whatnot. He does these USAA commercials. And his whole persona is that he's kind of a wide-eyed man child. To me, Gronk doing battle with Survivor strategists and duplicitous Housewives--
HOLMES: The fact that they call him Gronk and it really seems appropriate kind of gives you the feel of the guy.
HARRIS: I mean, it reminds me of Kronk from Emperor's New Groove.
WELDON: Of course.
THOMPSON: And honestly, that's not too far off, persona-wise. They're actually pretty similar. But anyway, like, watching him do battle with people who are actually good at The Traitors would be TV gold. And I would be stunned if they haven't already driven a dump truck full of money up to his house to get him to join the next cast.
HOLMES: Yeah.
HARRIS: It's very believable.
THOMPSON: Also, to me, the more you set this up as an archetype, the more you can surprise people with folks who appear to be dummies, but are actually great at the game and might actually be great at being traitors. You would never make Gronk a traitor, I don't think. This is where I would offer a bonus recommendation-- former running back Marshawn Lynch.
HOLMES: Ooh, yes.
HARRIS: I know him.
WELDON: Oh, see-- yeah, he'd be good.
HOLMES: Too smart, I think. Too crafty, I think.
THOMPSON: But this is the thing--
WELDON: So you make him a traitor.
THOMPSON: This is the thing. This is why I think people would think he was part of the strategic oaf preserve. But actually, he's not only very funny, but I think he would be good at being a traitor.
HOLMES: Well-- and I will say there was an improved comedy show-- I don't know if you remember this-- on Netflix, where they were doing, like, a crime of the week. It was Will Arnett.
HARRIS: Yes.
HOLMES: It was, like, a bunch of comedians and Marshawn Lynch. And the funniest thing about it was that the person who fared the best in the improv, I thought, was Marshawn Lynch. So the relationship between reality show contestanting and improv is, you know--
THOMPSON: There's some overlap.
HOLMES: So I get it. I'm with you.
WELDON: Stephen, not only do I think you have successfully predicted the next season of this show. I got to say, Marshawn Lynch is going to be a lot better TV than Gronk. That's just my instinct.
THOMPSON: They're very, very different. But I think one way you sneak Marshawn Lynch in as a traitor is by setting up the archetype of the oaf. I'm just saying, in general, I love oaves on The Traitors. I want Gronk next, and then I want Marshawn Lynch, who is actually no oaf.
HOLMES: I get that.
HARRIS: Yeah.
THOMPSON: I just love to watch a guy get confused.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WELDON: Your criteria is mouth breather.
HOLMES: Yes, that's true. All right, I love that pick, Stephen. I love that pick. And I love, namely, Marshawn Lynch. Aisha, who did you choose?
HARRIS: OK, so let's be real. I started watching Traitors with season two. And my reality TV diet is not the same as what usually shows up on Traitors. So especially this current season, I knew absolutely no one on this show.
HOLMES: I didn't know a lot.
HARRIS: Yeah, I was familiar with Bob the Drag Queen. And-- oh, actually, once Wes came on, I was like oh, Wes-- yes. I watched The Challenge for, like, far too long. So that's it. And the joy of the show, I think, is that, like, I don't have to know because everyone is a type, and you learn type within the first episode, and you know who they are.
WELDON: Absolutely.
HARRIS: So it was a little tough for me to figure out, OK, who would I think-- like, let me reach back into the recesses of my mind when I was watching more of these types of reality shows, back when I was watching Surreal Life, various-- Rock of Love, Flavor of Love, whatever, from VH1-- that era.
HOLMES: Charm School.
HARRIS: Yes, Charm School. And I finally landed upon none other than Tiffany Pollard, a.k.a. New York--
THOMPSON: Oh, sure.
HARRIS: --from the first couple of seasons of Flavor of Love. Now, she--
HOLMES: I'll buy that.
HARRIS: --was the breakout star of that show. She was unhinged in her commitment to being the winner, and-- oh, I should set this up for people who probably have no idea what I'm talking about. Flavor Flav, who recently has had a renaissance-- a resurgence in the culture and who I actually thought of first for this. And then I was like, Flavor Flav is too good for this show. [LAUGHS] I don't want him in this reality show world anymore. Leave him out of it. But on that show, which was a kind of spin-off of The Surreal Life, because he was on that show, he was trying to find a woman to date him and, you know, become his girlfriend, or whatever. And Tiffany was nicknamed New York, and she became the one person who was like, I'm going to be the bad woman in this house. I'm going to be-- she was the Omarosa, except it was less fraught because there were lots of other Black women. She wasn't the sole Black woman. So there were lots of different types of Black women. So it was like-- I was OK with it. It's fine. She had many infamous moments, including one of the other contestants claiming that her friend said that she reminds them of Beyoncé.
[AUDIO PLAYBACK]
NEW YORK: Beyoncé? Beyoncé? Beyoncé? You know-- You know who you really look like? You [BLEEP] look like Luther Vandross.
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HARRIS: And part of why I think that she would be good on a show like Traitors is because-- do I think that she would necessarily be good as a traitor or a faithful? The problem is that, like, she was known for being the bad person, the one who, like, doesn't give any cares about what anyone thinks of her, is proud of that. And I think when you come onto a show like Traitors, oftentimes people are going to think that you're probably a traitor, which is not helpful because then they're all going to be gunning for you. But also, if you're a faithful, people are still going to think you're a traitor. And then it's like, oh, like, how do you play this? I don't know if she'd be actually good at this game. But what she would be good at is giving us at least two to three episodes of just pure gold of entertainment. In the same way, Stephen, you like watching the oafs go, you know, try-- like, just talk themselves into the complete wrong person, I love when we have a little bit of, like, you know, some diva behavior and we have some-- Like, the Housewives, I think they unfair rap. They're often not that bad. Like, everyone kind of gangs up on the Housewives in a weird way. But I think it would all kind of maybe turn to Tiffany. And let's be real. She's grown, at least. She's done other, you know, reality shows. I think she would provide the comedy, the gold. I think, you know, maybe a comparable former Traitor guest was probably, like, maybe Phaedra? And Phaedra actually turned out to be pretty good as a traitor.
HOLMES: She was fun to watch.
HARRIS: Yeah, she was fun to watch.
THOMPSON: Yeah.
HARRIS: I think we need that. I think we need Tiffany. And we need someone who, like, is going to give off-the-cuff comments, who actually might get very confused as well, but in a different way [LAUGHS] than the oaves, and will just, like, bring a little bit of fun to the game in a way that, like, we haven't quite seen before. So I want New York, I want Tiffany Pollard, I miss her,
WELDON: I like this pick. I like this pic.
HOLMES: Yeah, I like this pic, too. I think that era of, like, MTV and VH1, like, reality shows is a very, like, specific moment that-- the fact that there was not only Rock of Love, but then there was Rock of Love Bus-- like--
HARRIS: Yes.
HOLMES: I'm glad to see that branch of reality shows represented because it hasn't been.
WELDON: If we can pinpoint a traitor behavior-- and I think that's an open question. But if you can, it's the sowing of chaos. And Tiffany-- that is her métier.
HARRIS: Yes.
WELDON: Chaos is her--
HARRIS: Yes, yes.
WELDON: --is the very air that she breathes.
HARRIS: Yes.
HOLMES: Love that. All right. Tiffany Pollard, thank you very much, Aisha Harris. The best way to explain my pick is to remind you that we once had a comedy series, the beginning of which went-- (SINGING) she was working at a bridal shop in Flushing, Queens, and the boyfriend kicked her out in one of those crushing scenes.
THOMPSON: She's pretty busy.
HOLMES: I am not suggesting we get Fran Drescher. What you need to know is that in the song, when she says, till her boyfriend kicked her out in one of those crushing scenes, the boyfriend was played on The Nanny, eventually, by a stunning, blue-eyed actor by the name of Jonathan Penner.
THOMPSON: Oh.
HOLMES: And Jonathan Penner then went on to appear three times on Survivor.
WELDON: Yes.
THOMPSON: One of my all-time favorite Survivor contestants.
HOLMES: He played Survivor three times.
THOMPSON: Yeah.
HOLMES: He played Survivor-- and it wasn't the very beginning. He played in the 13th season.
THOMPSON: No, he played Cook Islands.
HOLMES: Cook Islands, which is the famous separate the teams by race.
HARRIS: Oh, god.
HOLMES: Yes. And then he was, again, on the 16th season, Fans vs. Favorites. He went home early with an injury that season, very, very sad for me. And then on the 25th season, which was in the Philippines. He never won. But particularly in Cook Islands, he very much changed the direction of that season. And the thing about him is he is ruthlessly practical and logical, while also having no patience for people who are jerks. And that combination has always been irresistible to me. Without getting too into the weeds, what happened in the Cook Islands season is that Jonathan was part of an alliance that was the theoretical majority. But he found out that because of one of the game's little quirks, this immunity idol that they have, if they voted the way that they planned to-- his majority group-- it might backfire and he himself might be voted out. So he prevailed on his team. He said, we have to change the plan. We can't do that because I will end up getting voted out if we do this. They blew him off. They thought he was just being paranoid. They said, oh, you know-- And he was very conflicted about what to do. And I found his ways of describing it very funny. And I brought a clip.
THOMPSON: Oh, yes.
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JONATHAN PENNER: Either way, people are going to be pissed. Either I'll have betrayed the Raro people and I'm a complete bastard, or I didn't jump over to the Aitu people and I'm a complete bastard who screwed them twice. I don't know what I'm going to do.
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HARRIS: Is that a New York accent I'm detecting?
HOLMES: I assume. I assume.
HARRIS: It sounded very New York.
HOLMES: The result was that he did switch sides to protect himself. He voted out of his own team. I mean, he definitely was very imperiled by the situation, but he also just really didn't like the people who were on his own team because they were jerks. So he flipped. His team got very angry, in part because they were sure that the person he thought had the idol didn't, unaware that that person had actually showed the idol to Jonathan, so he already knew they had the idol.
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PENNER: If I didn't throw in with them, they all would have voted for me. You all would have voted for Yul, and it would have bounced off Yul and hit me.
CONTESTANT: Not if you told us about the idol.
PARVATI SHALLOW: He doesn't have the idol.
PENNER: Yul does have the idol. He showed me the idol. I don't know what you think you're talking about.
[END PLAYBACK]
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HOLMES: Oh, those little loser noises, where it goes, [VOCALIZING]. So the thing that makes this wonderful for Traitors purposes is that the person in that clip who is saying, he doesn't have the idol, is one Parvati Shallow.
THOMPSON: Yep.
HARRIS: Parvati!
HOLMES: Survivor later decided was a genius and a brilliant player, and she had a couple seasons where she played very well. However, in this season, she was completely, just, defeated soundly by-- specifically this move by him. I very, very much like him. He is a guy I did, like, meet a couple times at Survivor parties back when I used to cover survivor. He's a lovely person. But more to the point, I just think he's a really fun presence in something like this because he is incredibly strategic, but he's also-- gets on people's nerves.
THOMPSON: Yes.
HOLMES: So he's irritable and emotional, but he's also very good at sitting down and playing out strategy. And I don't even know if I would want him to be a traitor or a faithful, but I would love watching him on this show.
HARRIS: He sounds like he'd be better as a faithful, to be honest.
HOLMES: He might very well.
HARRIS: He seems like the type who might be able to convince other people, like, here's what we need to do.
HOLMES: That is very true. And people would probably think he was a traitor because he kind of has this reputation for being, like, slippery, I think, more than he actually is.
WELDON: I think he would make a great faithful who gets recruited as a traitor partway through the season.
HOLMES: Yeah, so my vote goes to the great Jonathan Penner, one of my very favorite Survivors of all time. And if we can have Boston Rob on, we can definitely have Penner on.
WELDON: Oh, definitely, yeah.
HOLMES: Glen, I have a feeling that you have something epic in store. I don't know what it is.
WELDON: Well, I mean, y'all remember I was kind of worried when this topic was pitched because the only reality show I watch is Drag Race, and drag queens are already in this mix, right? It wouldn't be a breakthrough. I wouldn't shatter a ceiling. And I thought, well, if this is fantasy casting, I want to lead into the fantasy, right? So here's a hint-- the initials, KF. Any guesses?
THOMPSON: KF?
WELDON: Middle initial, T.
THOMPSON: Oh, my gosh.
WELDON: Last name, Frog. First name is Kermit.
[LAUGHTER]
HARRIS: I thought we were still talking about drag queens.
WELDON: Kermit T. Frog. Now, hear me out. There would be some legal and logistical hurdles to clear. Peacock is NBC Universal. Kermit is Disney. They don't play well together. Logistically, you'd have to creatively shoot the entire season so you don't see the puppeteer or the Muppeteer, I guess.
HARRIS: How is he going to do challenges?
WELDON: He's at the bar a lot.
HOLMES: Yeah, he's at the bar a lot.
WELDON: He's at the bar a lot. You would need to dig a pit that the Muppeteer could stand in at the round table. And, you know, every time he has to write a name on a chalkboard, you'd have to cut away. You know, allowances would need to be made. I'm not saying it would be easy. And, you know, in the physical challenges, he probably couldn't hold his own, you know? Unless they involved riding a bicycle or playing the banjo. I do think he would be great on this show. And when I pitched it to our producers Liz and Jessica, they were like, big-time Pilot Pete energy. And I get it, right? Contestant on season two. We already talked about-- affable, amiable, also a good player. And that's his whole thing. Affable, amiable. So you don't make him a faithful. That's the rookie move. You make him a traitor. Consider-- what does he do for a living? He stands at the very center of chaos. He'd keep a cool head. What he would do is he would win people over, especially these people, because he is a enthusiast, right? So every D-list reality show star he meets in that castle, he'd go up to them, and he'd treat them like they're his very special guest star. And then he'd say their name, and then he'd go, yay! And-- now, all these people are narcissists. So they would eat that up. They would come to trust him. Some other negatives-- he's given to self-pity, that whole, it's not easy being green, thing. And that is-- you know, dude, that is your privilege talking. And Lord knows, if he ever tries to whip out a banjo, he'd be that guy at the party, and he'd make some enemies.
HOLMES: Yeah.
WELDON: So I was thinking maybe not Kermit, maybe some other Muppet. But everyone I came up with-- I had reasons to shoot them down. So pitch me. Pitch me some Muppets here.
HARRIS: I mean, I would say Miss Piggy.
WELDON: Yeah, sure. Like--
HOLMES: Yeah.
THOMPSON: I was thinking Animal is basically the Gronk.
WELDON: Sure. Certainly, mouth breathers. But I think Piggy, Fozzie, and Animal, in three different, ways are all extra. And extra doesn't get you very far in this show.
THOMPSON: Sure.
WELDON: It's got to be Kermit because he is humble in a castle full of people with very inflated senses of selves.
THOMPSON: There's even a meme of him in a hood, in, like, a cloak with a hood.
WELDON: Think of the memes. Any time anybody is gossiping and throwing out ideas, you'd just cut away to a shot of Kermit sipping tea. And all of America's going to be pointing at the screen like they're Leo DiCaprio. And speaking of memes, yes, Stephen, there is-- anyone who has seen Muppets Most Wanted knows he looks great in a black cloak. Talent brings their own wardrobe. Producers love that. So, Kermit. Kermit all the way.
HOLMES: I am going to say some of the issues that we have talked about with the logistics could be solved if, instead, we go to Big Bird.
THOMPSON: Hm.
HARRIS: Mm-hm.
WELDON: Big Bird would be led around by the nose. Big Bird would not be good TV. Big Bird is a born follower.
HOLMES: The thing with Kermit is that I think it would be interesting to see him on the show. I don't think he would make a good traitor. I would automatically assume he was a traitor because it just seems like, of course you're going to make him a traitor. And, you know, we've seen that happen sometimes assume the nice person or the sweet one is, like-- they're just like, oh, they have to be. Or they're always psyching each other-- themselves out. Like, well, the traitor wants us to think this, or whatever. Granted, oftentimes, they just wind up not picking Boston Rob again for, like, the fifth time. And it's like, what are we doing here? I guess I'm trying to think of, like, who would be best at defending themselves at the round table? Because that's something you have to take into consideration as well. And I do think Kermit would be very entertaining to watch try to defend himself.
WELDON: He's got a good take. He's got a good, like, shocked face.
HOLMES: Yes. Like, his mouth kind of wrinkles up, and I could totally see that. I mean, I also want to just throw out really quickly, like, Statler and Waldorf could be interesting chaos. I thought about that, too. Like, as a team maybe.
HARRIS: Yes, yes.
HOLMES: I think you're on to something there. I think that's a good idea. And I mean, any of these options would allow us the promise of Alan Cumming interacting with any of these Muppets. And I would watch that, for sure.
HARRIS: Yes.
HOLMES: That's the other pro Miss Piggy argument is the Miss Piggy and Alan Cumming hang, I think, needs to happen.
HARRIS: Also, like, Miss Piggy and Tiffany Pollard together? Yes, please. Let's make that happen.
WELDON: Yeah, that makes sense.
[LAUGHTER]
HOLMES: I agree. Miss Piggy and Gronk, also good. I mean, listen, I think-- I am forced to conclude that we just have an abundance of good ideas, and we're just going to have to wait, probably, several seasons for them to get around to using all of them, safe to say. All right. Well, we want to know who you want to be in the next season of The Traitors. Find us at facebook.com/PCHH. That brings us to the end of our show. Aisha Harris, Stephen Thompson, Glen Weldon, thank you so much for being here. I consider you all faithfuls.
HARRIS: Thank you.
THOMPSON: Thank you.
WELDON: Thank you.
HOLMES: And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour+ is a great way to faithfully support our show and public radio, and you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor-free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org/happyhour, or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger and edited by Jessica Reedy and Mike Katzif. And HELLO COME IN continues to provide our theme. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Linda Holmes, and we'll see you all next time. Do not get banished before then.
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