< Sterlin Harjo didn't see himself in the TV shows he watched – so he made one

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST:

When have you felt overlooked?

STERLIN HARJO: I think my whole life. I think as a Native kid, you feel that way because of the lack of seeing yourself in mainstream media.

MARTIN: I'm Rachel Martin, and this is WILD CARD, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards...

Pick a card one through three.

...Questions about the memories, insights and beliefs that have shaped them.

HARJO: You know, "Res Dogs" definitely changed that. My kids don't know what it's like to not see themselves onscreen.

MARTIN: My guest this week is writer and director Sterlin Harjo.

HARJO: And no one will ever know what that feels like again because of the show. So, you know, that's pretty amazing.

MARTIN: I got lost in a world that wasn't mine recently, and I wanted to stay and hang out with the people who lived there because, after three seasons of "Reservation Dogs," I had fallen in love with four teenagers from Oklahoma. They're Native American kids living on a reservation, trying to figure out their lives after one of their best friends dies. It is poignant and hilarious, and it echoes a lot of Sterlin Harjo's own life. He is Seminole and Muscogee, and he grew up in rural Oklahoma.

He's one of the founding members of this Native American comedy group called The 1491s. And all his creative work is about showing the full dimension of what it means to be Native in this country. "Reservation Dogs" was nominated for the Emmy for best comedy this year, and I talked to Sterlin before the awards show. And even though he didn't get that prize, he got something better. He got to watch one of his young actors take up the mantle of representation for Native people himself.

D'Pharaoh Woon-A-Tai went to the Emmys with a red handprint painted on his face as a reminder of violence against Native women. In addition to that message, D'Pharaoh told Variety magazine that doing "Reservation Dogs" taught him, quote, "how important it is that we are the ones to tell our stories." Sterlin Harjo did that. He inspired a new generation of Native actors, writers, and directors to tell their own stories their own way. Just a heads up - in this conversation, Sterlin likes to drop the occasional curse word.

Sterlin Harjo, welcome to WILD CARD. We are so happy that you're here.

HARJO: Thank you, Rachel. Thanks for having me.

MARTIN: So we have this game.

HARJO: Yeah.

MARTIN: And I think it's fun. I think you're going to enjoy the process.

HARJO: I'm excited. I'm very excited.

MARTIN: (Laughter).

HARJO: It's one of my favorites.

MARTIN: You say that to all the game show hosts.

HARJO: (Laughter).

MARTIN: So let me tell you how it's going to go. I've got a deck of cards in front of me. All right. Each card has a question on it that I'd love for you to answer. So I'll hold three up, and you get to pick one at random, one through three.

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: OK? You have two tools at your disposal. You get one skip. So if a certain question...

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: ...Is just not doing it for you, you can just skip it.

HARJO: OK.

MARTIN: And I'll replace it with another one from the deck.

HARJO: Yeah.

MARTIN: And you get one flip is the other thing. It's basically a way to buy yourself time. You can ask me to answer the question...

HARJO: Oh, OK. Cool.

MARTIN: ...Before you do.

HARJO: Cool.

MARTIN: And then you've still got to answer it.

HARJO: Got it.

MARTIN: But, you know, it gives you a minute to think. And you can take as much time as you want with each question. We're breaking it up into three rounds, a few questions in each round. And we'll get deeper as we go.

HARJO: Awesome.

MARTIN: Does that sound OK?

HARJO: Yeah.

MARTIN: All right. Let's go. Here are the first three cards.

HARJO: Cool.

MARTIN: You pick - one, two or three?

HARJO: Two.

MARTIN: What's something your parents taught you to love?

HARJO: I would say people, community.

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: They were - you know, both of them are very, like - if you were to talk to people in my hometown, there's a lot of love for my parents. And I think it's because, A, my dad was a martial arts instructor, and so a lot of kids came through and took his classes. And then he worked at the school and worked with a lot of students, Native students in particular.

And then my mom was, like, the type of person to - when someone passed away, even if we didn't know them well, she - or, like, weren't related, we would - she would take them food and make sure that they were taken care of. And a lot of times, she would take me with her. So, yeah, I think they taught me how to love community and be a part of that, be a loving branch of community.

MARTIN: It's one thing to, like, go with your mom when she does that. But when did it click for you, oh, I - now it's on me? Like, now I don't have my mom to do this. it's on me to extend this. It's on me to love people through action.

HARJO: I remember at one point when I was in - a freshman in college, I had a job at a barbecue restaurant. And I would - I was a server. And it was called Bob's Bar-B-Qs (ph) in Norman, Okla. And I was a server. And then to make extra money, I would just dress up in a pig suit and wave at people on the highway. And it was $8 an hour, which was, like, big then. And my friend's dad died, and I remember - I just remember thinking, well, this job and sort of regular society do not - does not support what I need to do, so I need to just leave it. So I quit my job that day, and I went back to my hometown and just changed my whole life and kind of was there for my friend.

MARTIN: Can I ask more about that? It was...

HARJO: Sure.

MARTIN: You were working at the barbecue, and you did the pig shift every once in a while. But presumably you were working towards something or...

HARJO: I mean, I was in school-ish (ph). And, I mean, here's the longer version. So we were, like, in love. Her dad died. She was in school...

MARTIN: Oh.

HARJO: ...Out of state. I quit my job to be with her. We ended up moving to Oregon together. And that's when I decided I wanted to be a filmmaker, and we moved back a kid later - had a kid. So there you go.

MARTIN: That's the good longer version.

HARJO: (Laughter) Yeah.

MARTIN: Wow. Wow. OK - three more cards.

HARJO: Cool.

MARTIN: You pick - one, two, three?

HARJO: Three.

MARTIN: Were you ever obsessed with a particular cosmic question as a kid?

HARJO: Yeah, very much. I used to almost have panic attacks as a kid over the idea of infinity and that space keeps going. If I sit there and I would think about it, I would go into a place where I'm really feeling it and knowing it and the idea of infinity and never-ending. And that's too big. That's crushing. It feels like they could crush a human. I mean, there's things that, like, our minds can't fathom, and that's one of them. It's somehow built into our brains. I think we have a way to cut that off.

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: And for me, I can dip into that, and that's scary as s***.

MARTIN: Yeah, because I don't think of that, and I didn't as a kid. And when I do, it doesn't make me feel scared.

HARJO: I think it's, like, one of those things like when, you know, there's, like, the hormone with women after childbirth where they're like, oh, yeah. I can do that again. Or, like, right after, they're like, oh, I'm never doing that again, and then, like, right after - like, oh, I can do that again. Let's go. You know?

MARTIN: With selective memory...

HARJO: Right, right.

MARTIN: ...You forget the trauma.

HARJO: I used to see a hand in the sky. That's crazy.

MARTIN: Interesting.

HARJO: Yeah. I used to see a hand in the sky. I don't know what that was. Like, when I was, like, 5 - 4 or 5, I remember looking up into the sky, and there was a giant hand, like, the palm of a hand like that. And I would, like, marvel at it, and I would tell my mom and them and freak them out because I'd be like, did you see that? Did you see the hand? And they would be like, what? And I'd be like, there's a hand in the sky. Do you see it? And I remember my mom saying, oh, yeah. Yeah, I see it. That's just God counting his people - just, like, trying to say something. And I'd be like...

MARTIN: Right, right.

HARJO: ...She doesn't see it. And then I remember I was riding with my cousins one time with my mom and my grandma. And I saw the hand again, and I was telling them. And my cousins were acting like they could see it, too. And I remember overhearing my mom talking to my grandma, obviously worried about me, going, yeah, he's been seeing that. I don't know what that is, you know?

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: Coming up, Sterlin talks about what gets sacrificed when there's not enough time for a career, kids, friends and a meaningful relationship.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: So this is the point in the show before we move on with the game where we talk about what you're working on creatively right now. And I guess my question is how - because, like, if it wasn't clear, I fell in love with "Reservation Dogs." How has the legacy of that show shown up in your future creative projects?

HARJO: I mean, it'll always be a part of it, but nothing will be that, though. Like, it was amazing and - the pressure and putting everything into it. Sometimes I feel like, wow, I did the thing that I wanted to do. Now what? But now it's...

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: ...Kind of like - now I just play and have fun. You know, I just made a pilot, and it's with Ethan Hawke and Keith David, Kyle MacLachlan, Tim Blake Nelson, lots of folks. And it's a noir set in Tulsa - very excited about that. So we'll be shooting that next year. But I see it in other people's work. Like, other...

MARTIN: You see "Res Dogs" in people's work.

HARJO: Yeah, people that worked on the show.

MARTIN: Yeah. That's cool.

HARJO: I see it branching off into other people's work...

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: ...People that were there and part of it. And that's cool because it's not ending. It's totally - it's part of why I ended the show. It's like, all these people need to make their own stuff and it's like, now it's sort of branching out into other things.

MARTIN: That takes discipline, though, to know, you know, it's time for all these other people to go out. We can't just keep doing this.

HARJO: Sure. I mean...

MARTIN: There are lots of shows that keep going on for many seasons...

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: ...Sterlin.

HARJO: I mean, you can't be selfish to do that, but also, you can - it's kind of punk rock, too, which - I like doing things that are unorthodox and not expected.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: OK. So we are moving on - round two.

HARJO: OK.

MARTIN: OK, three new cards - one, two or three?

HARJO: Two.

MARTIN: What makes you irrationally defensive?

HARJO: Anyone hurting my family or people that I love.

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: Maybe that's rational.

MARTIN: I think that's rational.

HARJO: OK. Here's a funny one. I - with my kids - and not to be - not to throw any race under the bus or anything like that. But it happens to always be an older white woman that does this. I'll be pushing a cart at Whole Foods, and my kids - you know, they're kids. They run around. And let's say - it doesn't matter their race but a social class, probably. The kids are running around, and the lady would be pushing a cart fast. And the kids run out in front of them, and they stop and huffing - and the woman huffs and puffs...

MARTIN: Right, right.

HARJO: ...And, like, rolls her eyes. And here's the thing that I do. And I feel like Larry David when I do this. But a thing that I do - and I've done it for a long time - is I talk really loud to my kid. And I point at the woman, and I say, guys, do you see what you've done? You've ruined her day.

MARTIN: (Laughter).

HARJO: You have ruined this woman's day, and it's - she's never going to recover from it. And I say it where...

MARTIN: That's pretty good.

HARJO: ...They can hear me. And I'm, like...

MARTIN: Yeah, yeah.

HARJO: ...Pointing at her, and then they shuffle off and whatever, you know? Another thing - I hate when people are in a hurry at the grocery store - same type of human. And they're in a hurry, and they're going way too fast in a grocery store. And so I will make, like, lamb noises at them or...

MARTIN: Like, baa.

HARJO: Yeah, yeah, (imitating lamb). Like, I'll do that really loud as they go by. Or I'll go, like, zip - I'll say zip-a-dee-doo (ph) or, like, beep, beep really loud as they go by just to make them feel uncomfortable for going so fast. There's no point in going that fast in a grocery store. So those are things that I do.

MARTIN: It's funny to me how, when I asked the question, you were like, oh, I don't know - like, anyone hurting my family. And then you were like, oh, no, I've got some. I've got some...

HARJO: Yeah, yeah.

MARTIN: ... Irrationally defensive behaviors.

HARJO: Right, for sure.

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: That's it. It always happens at Whole Foods.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: Three more cards - one, two or three?

HARJO: One.

MARTIN: What feels unreachable to you?

HARJO: What feels unreachable? How deep do you get on the show?

MARTIN: Pretty deep.

HARJO: Feels like a deep question.

MARTIN: Yeah, pretty deep.

HARJO: You know, what's unreachable, I think, for me, to be honest, is, I think, like, a calm, sustainable relationship. There's so much work. You know, you have to do so much work. You have so much - and then I also kind of give, I think, to a lot of people. And then, you know, you also have your kids and being so busy right now. There's not time for that, you know? So I think that - you know, there's been attempts obviously throughout the years, but, like, I truly feel like that's the thing that's, you know, unattainable right now.

MARTIN: It is...

HARJO: And my career doesn't make it easier, so...

MARTIN: No, I know. I mean, that's the thing when people - I talk about this all the time with friends or whoever. Like, if you have a career that you love and you're good at and you had a family and you have kids, they need a lot of...

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: Turns out, kids - they...

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: ...Need a lot of stuff.

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: And they need a lot from you.

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: And then if you are with your partner, then that's another thing that you're...

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: ...Trying to cultivate. And for me, I don't - like, I feel like my friendships have fallen dormant or I haven't invested enough in...

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: ...Like, friendship because - I don't understand how people have all the things.

HARJO: Right. I recently stopped drinking because it takes up your life, right? Like...

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: You're going out, having a good time, might have a hangover, you know, which takes up your life. And it's like, you know, like, I don't - I work too much. Like, I have no time for that. Like, I had to sort of dump it.

MARTIN: Like, the recovery time wasn't worth it.

HARJO: Yeah, right, exactly.

MARTIN: You don't have the hours in your day.

HARJO: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MARTIN: Right.

HARJO: Like, going and having a good time is easy and fun. But...

MARTIN: Right, right.

HARJO: I don't have the hours in a day to sit around and recover from it.

MARTIN: This is probably - I probably know how you're going to respond to this, but have you ever thought about - I mean, you're pretty successful now. You can write your calling card. Have you thought about just, like, taking a little hiatus creatively?

HARJO: Yeah. I mean, you know, I do, but, like, I can't right now. Like, I have - you know, maybe in a couple of years.

MARTIN: 'Cause you need to ride the wave.

HARJO: Yeah. Like, I have projects that have been in the queue, you know, and they're ready to go. And they're getting made now, so...

MARTIN: Right.

HARJO: I got to see that through and then - you know?

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: And then I will go on vacation.

MARTIN: Go on vacation. And I don't know. We barely know each other. But I think that there is a relationship out there for you...

HARJO: Thank you.

MARTIN: ...Sterlin Harjo.

HARJO: Thank you (laughter).

MARTIN: Not that you need me to encourage you on that front. But...

HARJO: Thank you.

MARTIN: You know, when the time is right...

HARJO: Sure.

MARTIN: ...It'll happen - getting deeper as we go.

HARJO: I'm going to, like, relisten to some of the episodes, and it's just all going to be, like, bubblegum. No one got deep. And then I'm just, like, spilling my guts out here.

MARTIN: Dude.

HARJO: (Laughter).

MARTIN: I'm telling you right now...

HARJO: Yeah.

MARTIN: ...That this - I don't want you to be offended.

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: But we're in mild territory.

HARJO: Oh, OK. Cool, cool, cool.

MARTIN: You and I...

HARJO: OK.

MARTIN: We're right here.

HARJO: All right. Good.

MARTIN: Like, there are so many other places...

HARJO: Let me put my sunglasses on. Maybe I'll go deeper.

MARTIN: Yeah - of vulnerability and exposure.

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: By all means, you do not have to do those things. I'm not, like...

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: ...Pushing anyone...

HARJO: Yeah, yeah.

MARTIN: ...Into that space.

HARJO: No, no, no. I hear you.

MARTIN: Just if the spirit moves you accordingly. OK, last question in this round - one, two...

HARJO: One.

MARTIN: One. When have you felt overlooked?

HARJO: I think my whole life. I think as a Native kid, you feel that way because of the lack of seeing yourself in mainstream media. And, you know, "Res Dogs" definitely changed that. My kids don't know what it's like to not see themselves onscreen. And no one will ever know what that feels like again because of the show. So, you know, that's pretty amazing. And, you know, you sort of - you accepted what you got when you were younger - when we were younger because it was like, oh, we're the evil, bad guys in the Western that say nothing but just scream and, you know, kill white women. But now there's other examples, so...

MARTIN: Do you - it's not a moment, but do you remember a consciousness setting in when you realized, this is sort of messed up that these are the people...

HARJO: I remember seeing a movie called "The Seminole Wars" or something, and I'm Seminole. My dad called me in there, and it was a Western. And they were all dressed like Lakotas. And at that point, I knew what, you know, Seminoles dressed like, and I knew that wasn't what we were. But it was kind of this moment of like, well, doesn't matter. We're being represented. Sure. Let's just enjoy it. You know? You know, there's other good examples as well. "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" was a great example where, you know, you - Will Sampson, who's from my tribe, who plays the sort of mute Indian in it, who actually isn't - who isn't mute, who's tricking everyone.

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: So it's sort of a play on, I think, the stoic Indian who doesn't talk and is mindless. And then you find out that he's actually tricking people all along. That was kind of a good, you know, inspirational representation I think when I was young.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: When we come back, we talk about the upside of funerals.

Three more cards - one, two, or three.

HARJO: Two.

MARTIN: Is there anything in your life that has felt predestined?

HARJO: Yes, all of it.

MARTIN: Really?

HARJO: Yeah, I feel a little bit sometimes like Forrest Gump in that, like, you know, Forrest Gump was always in these interesting things. And as far as, like, Native art and representation and media, I feel like I've been a part of so many little movements in this, and I've been so lucky and it's been very blessed, you know? Like, part of the thing that I did in my 30s - had a comedy group called the 1491s.

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: We've never officially broken up, but we just got jobs. And we toured reservations and did sketch comedy and showed our videos that we would do that were on YouTube and got paid enough to pay the bills, not a lot. But that was one of the most beautiful times, you know? And it was like we were watching things shift in our universe as far as Native people, humor coming to everyone and just people being able to laugh with us. And that was a really beautiful, beautiful time. It's a whole era that's not here anymore. I mean, this is more like post-"Res Dogs" era now, you know? And, you know, it's just been a really cool, beautiful life, so...

MARTIN: But that's different - so I hear you appreciating all these great things that happened. But predestined destiny, is - like, fate...

HARJO: I mean, all of that I think is fate, though.

MARTIN: You do? So is there a guiding hand in that? Is there a divineness?

HARJO: Yeah, I think that I - I think there could be sort of an energy or something, but I was meant to meet Ryan RedCorn, Dallas Goldtooth, Bobby Wilson and Migizi Pensoneau. We all came together in this weird way.

MARTIN: Sure, yeah.

HARJO: And yeah, then we all ended up going on and I hired them to be in and write "Reservation Dogs" with me, and we were meant to be together to do that. And everything that we did with our comedy group was used and implemented in the writing of the TV show. And, you know, a lot of us say this a lot is like, man, no one would believe us. Like, when we're old someday, we're going to tell our grandkids, like, well, all of these things that we did, and no one's going to believe us because it did feel like we were destined to find each other and meet each other and become a part of this thing.

MARTIN: Does that make you feel pretty optimistic about what the rest of this whole thing has in store for you - life?

HARJO: Yeah. I mean, there's also the other side of that, which is like, well, you did it. See you later, you know. Like...

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: There's that, so...

MARTIN: And now the other part of your destiny.

HARJO: Right. Right. Exactly.

MARTIN: (Laughter).

HARJO: Yeah.

MARTIN: OK. Three new cards - one, two, three. You pick.

HARJO: Three.

MARTIN: How often do you think about death?

HARJO: All the time. Way too much. I was thinking about it right after the last thing that we just said, actually. I was thinking about the line by the band the Turnpike Troubadors, in a song where he says, everybody wants to be Hank Williams, but nobody wants to die. And I think that it is definitely prevalent in all of my work.

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: Because I think that there were people that died in my life when I was young that had a great impact on me that I just couldn't figure out. I couldn't figure out the mystery of that. And, I couldn't figure out where they go. What is this that I signed up for? I've been exploring that ever since.

MARTIN: What do you mean? Like, the living part - like, they're here and then they're not here?

HARJO: Yeah.

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: Where'd they go?

MARTIN: Yeah, where'd they go? Like, when you lose a loved one, it's just this cognitive dissonance. You don't understand. They were just here.

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: And how are they not? And...

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: ...Where do they go?

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: Everybody says they can live on. And you know, my mom was - my mom died of cancer. She had a long death, so she got to plant a lot of stories...

HARJO: Right. Right.

MARTIN: ...For us about how to remember her.

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: So she got to buy us wind chimes and say, I live in the wind, and that's a comforting idea for me, and it doesn't change the fact that she's still...

HARJO: Gone.

MARTIN: ...Just, like, not here (laughter).

HARJO: Right. Right.

MARTIN: So, yeah, I mean, I think about death all the time.

HARJO: I mean, I think having kids is the most heartbreaking of all. Like, if you are confused by death and scared of death...

MARTIN: Yeah

HARJO: ...Or confused by it and just blown away by it, wait till you have kids.

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: And then you look at them, and it's like, whoa, like, nothing good in the end, however it ends.

MARTIN: Yeah. *****

MARTIN: *** Right.

HARJO: Yeah.

MARTIN: Right - the separation from them. What I also appreciated about the show and just what you told me earlier about going around when people would die, and your mom would be like, now it's our thing - we go, and we bring food...

HARJO: Right.

MARTIN: ...But also just, like, going to a lot of funerals. Like, I don't think people go to enough funerals.

HARJO: I don't think they do either. I grew up at them. I think they're important. And it was one of the best times because I think that people are very honest with each other after they - after someone dies, you know? Like, people that would normally not say, I love you, say, I love you.

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: There's people in my family that maybe I had a falling-out with or not talking at the moment, and you just think, like, you know, calling them might not work, but at a funeral, we'll talk again, you know?

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: And at the - and I've seen that happen a lot with, like, family coming together at funerals and...

MARTIN: Yeah.

HARJO: ...Sort of throwing out the past and moving forward.

MARTIN: Yeah. I love that. OK, three more cards. These are the last three. One, two or three?

HARJO: Two again.

MARTIN: Two. Is there anything in your life that feels like praying?

HARJO: Hunting.

MARTIN: Huh.

HARJO: Yeah.

MARTIN: So tell me why.

HARJO: Because I think that praying is similar and that when we go to our ceremonial dances, they're at night. And it's around a fire, and I feel the same that I do there, which is very prayerful. I feel the same there as I do hunting. And I think - because when you're hunting, you are very close to life and death. You know what's coming. You know what's possible. You know that any minute, you could be ending something and, you know, literally covered in blood. And that's sad, both devastating and sort of primal, and literally what we are supposed to be doing as humans because, you know, that's how we survive. So, it's kind of built into our DNA, I think.

And - but you're also hyperaware. You're in the forest with nothing but yourself. You're hyperaware, and you have nothing but yourself to contend with. So everything that you're feeling insecure about, or everything that you're unhappy with yourself about, or any argument that you're in at the moment, all of that bubbles up to the surface, and it's, like, on the edge of your eyelids and on the top of your mind. And you have to deal with it, and you have to be at peace with it. And it's - ends up being a very peaceful thing, I think. But it's also very hard because, you know, it does bring your anxieties to the surface.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: So we end the show the same way every time.

HARJO: OK.

MARTIN: And this is how we do it, with a trip in our memory time machine.

HARJO: Yep.

MARTIN: You pick a moment from your past that you wouldn't change anything about, but you would just want to linger there a little longer. What do you choose?

HARJO: I would go to my grandma's kitchen while my grandma, her brothers and sisters are sitting around the table, telling stories, laughing and talking. And I'm there soaking it all up, not knowing that I was learning how to tell stories at the time. And I was learning how to tell a story like them and use humor and sadness and drama and everything, and not knowing that that knowledge and the things that they were saying were going to be gone. I wish I could go back to that.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

MARTIN: Sterlin Harjo is the creator, writer and director of "Reservation Dogs." Sterlin, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. It was really fun for me.

HARJO: Thank you so much. It was really fun for me. What a game.

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MARTIN: If you want more from Sterlin Harjo, we've got a bonus WILD CARD question with him for our WILD CARD+ supporters. Sterlin talks about a chapter in his life that went by too fast.

HARJO: Well, I think it probably passed too fast because it was stressful, you know? And I didn't sit and smell the roses because I was working so hard to build this career, you know, that I wish I could go back and really be present sometimes.

MARTIN: You can listen to that bonus episode and every one of our episodes sponsor-free by signing up for WILD CARD+ at plus.npr.org/wildcard. This episode was produced by Rommel Wood with help from Lee Hale. It was edited by Dave Blanchard, fact-checked by Greta Pittenger and mastered by Carleigh Strange and Robert Rodriguez. WILD CARD's executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. You can reach out to us at wildcard@npr.org. We love it when you do. We will shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

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