Lucretius, Man Of Modern Mystery : Krulwich Wonders... In his new book, author and Harvard literature professor Stephen Greenblatt explores the 2,000 year-old writings of Lucretius and his "spookily modern" creation tale.
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Lucretius, Man Of Modern Mystery

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Lucretius, Man Of Modern Mystery

Lucretius, Man Of Modern Mystery

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Here's NPR's science correspondent Robert Krulwich.

ROBERT KRULWICH: Way back when he was just 17 years old, and this was years and years before he became a Literature Professor at Harvard, and author of the bestseller "Will in The World," about Shakespeare, Stephen Greenblatt was standing in his college bookstore, his exams were over, the summer beckoned, and as he looks around...

STEPHEN GREENBLATT: Something catches my eye.

KRULWICH: There, sitting in a bin was a little book.

GREENBLATT: It was for sale for 10 cents.

KRULWICH: Yeah, but the thing that got his attention, was the cover.


KRULWICH: It showed two pairs of naked legs intertwined.

GREENBLATT: In what appear to be an intimate position.

KRULWICH: The title, on the other hand, was sort of straight, "On the Nature of Things" by some ancient Roman named Lucretius. But because of the cover...

GREENBLATT: I bought it.

KRULWICH: And when he opened it, it started with a hymn or a poem.

GREENBLATT: About how in the spring, all animals are excited with the impulse to regenerate.


GREENBLATT: Anyway, it goes on...

KRULWICH: This is getting good, then, right? It's like...

GREENBLATT: Yeah, it goes on in this really wonderful and powerful vein.

KRULWICH: But when the poem ends, and the book takes a turn to science and starts to describe how the world is put together, then Stephen was totally wowed.

GREENBLATT: My jaw dropped.

KRULWICH: But why? What does he say?

GREENBLATT: Well, what he says is that the world doesn't need any creator. The universe is made up out of an infinite number of atoms.

KRULWICH: And people, dogs, rocks, stars, everything is made from the same stuff. So humans are not special. We don't have souls, and if we do when we die...

GREENBLATT: The soul would dissolve, as well...


GREENBLATT: there'd be absolutely no afterlife.

KRULWICH: No heaven, no hell, just random collections of atoms clumping together over vast spells of time.

GREENBLATT: An emptiness, void and nothing else.

KRULWICH: Whoa. When did Lucretius write this?

GREENBLATT: More than 2,000 years ago.

KRULWICH: What do you know about him?

GREENBLATT: Zilch. Nada, virtually.

KRULWICH: Only that he lived in Rome, that the book of his...

GREENBLATT: Is the only one.

KRULWICH: But in its day...

GREENBLATT: This poem was quite famous.

KRULWICH: Fifty years before Jesus, many Romans probably had copies of Lucretius in their libraries. Then comes the rise of the Christian Church. When church fathers read this poem, they thought: What, where is our story?

GREENBLATT: Where were the angels? Where were the demons? Where was Jesus Christ? That world didn't have room any longer for a vision of atoms and emptiness and nothing else. So Lucretius basically goes underground, disappears.

KRULWICH: His books made of papyrus get lost, get eaten by insects.

GREENBLATT: So what was once a fairly widespread text becomes much less familiar, and then less familiar and less familiar until, in the case of Lucretius, they might have been reduced to something like two, three copies, let's imagine in existence.

KRULWICH: So if this poem with all its novel ideas is going to make it through to the Renaissance, it would have to be hand-copied by monks in monasteries every few hundred years. So the book is now hanging by a thread.

GREENBLATT: Absolute thread. And then it just depends. It's a pure matter of accident because no one at this point is interested in keeping it alive any more than...

KRULWICH: Well, let's have our accident. Let's have our accident.



KRULWICH: Poggio Bracciolini - I don't know. Is that how you say it?

GREENBLATT: That is Poggio Bracciolini - you can think of Sylvia Poggioli...


GREENBLATT: And just to shorten it to Poggio, but actually...

KRULWICH: You are a public radio type, aren't you?

GREENBLATT: I, of course.


GREENBLATT: So, there are a group of people, let's say around the year 1400.

KRULWICH: And one of them is Poggio Bracciolini who lived near Florence

GREENBLATT: He was a poor kid. He came with, he says, five pennies in his pocket to Florence. But he has a peculiar gift, which is that he has fantastically good handwriting.

KRULWICH: And that gift got him his jobs with the Pope.

GREENBLATT: That's where the money is.

KRULWICH: And where there's intrigue and corruption and violence are. At one point, Poggio gets into a fight with another secretary and he tries to gouge out his eye.

GREENBLATT: Well, the other guy was holding his testicles at the time.


GREENBLATT: I mean they were having a fight. They all hated each other.

KRULWICH: This sounds awful.

GREENBLATT: And so it was a good place to lose your soul, as it were.

KRULWICH: And so, Poggio, in his spare time he became a book hunter. And in the winter of 1417...

GREENBLATT: And he has time on his hands.

KRULWICH: So he heads off to Germany where there are still monasteries...

GREENBLATT: Ancient monasteries, with libraries, that hadn't been searched yet.

KRULWICH: And then...

GREENBLATT: One day, he finds himself somewhere, we don't - I think it was Fulda.

KRULWICH: In Germany and he, in effect, knocks on a monastery door and he asks for entry.

GREENBLATT: And he goes into the library and he finds it.

KRULWICH: Our book - he's looking around...

GREENBLATT: It's completely random. He hasn't a clue what he's going to find.

KRULWICH: But somehow, after a thousand years, against all odds, sitting on a shelf, here it is.

GREENBLATT: "On the Nature of Things," and he must have recognized the name.

KRULWICH: Because Poggio immediately ordered a copy made, and then made another in his beautiful handwriting.

GREENBLATT: And he sent it back to a friend of his, Niccola Niccoli. And that act of making a copy of the copy, of the copy of the copy, brought it back to life.

KRULWICH: First, it was passed...

GREENBLATT: Very, very quietly.

KRULWICH: To certain households in Florence Then it shows up in Bologna and then in Paris. And people begin to talk of universes built from atoms, wondering...

GREENBLATT: What if that were possible?

KRULWICH: It's not possible, says the church. And the book is banned, first in schools and then In Florence. But Machiavelli, in his own hand, makes himself a private copy. And now, Shakespeare notices and then Montaigne in France writes essay after essay about Lucretius.

GREENBLATT: Moliere did a translation.

KRULWICH: And Thomas Jefferson had five copies of Lucretius in his library. They, all of them, borrowed from Lucretius - this radically secular thinker. Though his poem is more than 2,000 years old, even today...

GREENBLATT: It's dangerous. It's radioactive. It's dangerous to touch it.

KRULWICH: It describes a universe with no author and no purpose, but of such exquisite complexity...

GREENBLATT: It's unbelievably beautiful. It's written in just magnificent poetry.

KRULWICH: That says that even if there is no heaven, no loving god, no design, no reason for us to be here - as painful as that may seem - says Lucretius, look around, what is here is more than good. It's amazing and it's beautiful.

GREENBLATT: I think that there is a deep truth to that perception and I think that what Lucretius offers still, after 2,000 years - more than 2,000 years - is an incentive to take this news not as pain but as pleasure, not as disillusionment, but as wonder.

KRULWICH: Robert Krulwich, NPR News.

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