FARAI CHIDEYA, host:
And for another perspective, we've got Heidi Beirich of the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Alabama. She says the FBI's findings don't reflect the reality of hate crimes perpetuated each year in the U.S. Welcome, Heidi.
Dr. HEIDI BEIRICH (Deputy Director, Intelligence Project, Southern Poverty Law Center): Hi.
CHIDEYA: So what are your main critiques?
Dr. BEIRICH: Well, there are several problems with the program as the FBI compiles the statistics that don't really have to do with the FBI. They are not in charge of having designed the way it works. You've already discussed one, which is the voluntary nature of the program.
The second thing is that a very large chunk of law enforcement agencies in the United States simply do not participate at all - about a third of them. In addition to which, we have states like Mississippi and Hawaii who are not participating at all, reporting zero hate crimes which is sort of statistically impossible. You've got my home state here of Alabama that reported one hate crime last year for a population of over four million people. Those numbers just can't be right. So there's under reporting from certain states.
Also, there's an issue in terms of what the definition of a hate crime is and some states, like Alabama, sexual orientation is not part of the hate crimes code. So that takes a whole class of crimes sort of off the table for the FBI's report.
CHIDEYA: That's in part because, as of yet, there are not the same federal statutes and there have been some efforts recently to have federal statutes that dealt with discrimination against gays and lesbians and hate crimes. Do you think that would change the reporting?
Dr. BEIRICH: Well, I mean, we still have the problem of the voluntary nature of the program. We have the problem with, you know, law enforcement agencies who choose not to participate. But you would at least have a better picture of who is being subjected to hate crimes in the United States if you included sexual orientation everywhere because it's a big part of hate crimes, unfortunately.
CHIDEYA: Well, let's break down a few of the statistics. More than half of the incidents were motivated by racial bias, according to this report. Two-thirds of those victims were African-Americans. What does that say about hate crimes or the way hate crimes are reported?
Dr. BEIRICH: Well, I mean, I have to say this - and, unfortunately, I have to say this. The fact of the matter is that these data can't really tell us much about trends - vis-à-vis hate crimes. The Department of Justice did a study with a different set - a better sort of data in 2005 on hate crimes in the United States. And instead of the nine, the sort of, you know, seven to nine thousand hate crimes that the FBI has been for year in and year out for some time now, that study reported that there were more like a hundred and ninety thousands hate crimes in the United States every year.
So when you look at the difference between the data set by the FBA's, you know, annual reports and then this other study, it just makes you very suspect of even saying hey, because 52 percent of the offenders that the FBI, you know, found in hate crimes were white, that means - it's just hard to know sort of what a trend might be based on their data.
CHIDEYA: So given that this is the case, how does that influence what you do at the Southern Poverty Law Center, because you also track hate crimes? How do you differentiate what you do from how, for example, the FBI accumulates the numbers?
Dr. BEIRICH: Right. Well, we only have the ability to get anecdotal evidence, right? So we're looking at news stories and trying to record this information. We're talking to law enforcement agencies. We're training cops in how to take hate - you know, why hate crimes need to be taken seriously.
And our biggest issue really is we want better data, whether it's through the FBI collecting the data or some other way, because until we know the full extent of the problem of hate crimes in the society, I mean, it's a lot different to say there's a hundred and ninety thousand hate crimes a year than 8,000 hate crimes a year.
Until we really know what the dimensions are, we're not going to be able to, you know, to even address them.
CHIDEYA: So is there a way that some local authorities are dealing with this that's counterproductive? If so, is this more concentrated in the south where you have had some of these extremely low numbers or is it not a regional issue?
Dr. BEIRICH: I mean, I think there is a regional aspect to this. We did a big study of who was reporting and who wasn't reporting hate crimes back in 2001, and there's no question that the southern states were less interested in being successful in their efforts to report hate crimes and, you know, that shows in Alabama's one hate crime, Mississippi sort of checking out of the process. Places like New York, New Jersey, California - those are states that are really trying to do their best to get this data as clean as possible, to train their officers, to be involved in the process. So, yes, there is a regional aspect to it, but there's also some quirks to that. Hawaii has no interest in participating in the hate crimes program even though it's a completely multicultural society.
CHIDEYA: Now, when you look forward to what might happen in the future, what would you like to see on the federal level in terms of tracking hate crimes?
Dr. BEIRICH: Well, we'd like to - happen to take more time to investigate this other set of data that was in used 2005 - its national crime victimization data - and so that they can get a better and more accurate count of what - how many hate crimes there are and sort of what kinds of hate crimes are occurring; that would be one thing.
The second thing is law enforcement really needs to be trained to take hate crimes seriously. Even if it's a voluntary program, if the cops care about hate crimes, are concerned about this issue, are filing police reports, then we don't have a problem, right?
And then there's also the attention to hate crimes at the federal level right now where there's an attempt in Congress to pass a hate crimes bill that would strengthen the protections on the basis of sexual orientation, and that's also important.
CHIDEYA: Well, Heidi, thank you so much for joining us.
Dr. BEIRICH: Thanks a lot.
CHIDEYA: Heidi Beirich is - of the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Alabama.
And just ahead, news from Nigeria, Zimbabwe and Liberia in our Africa update.
Plus, Ms. Magazine turns 35.
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