FARAI CHIDEYA, host:
We're talking presidential politics. And we're back with Sherrilyn Ifill. She's a civil rights lawyer and she teaches at the University of Maryland, School of Law in Baltimore. Plus, Ron Walters, he is the director of the African-American Leadership Institute at the University of Maryland.
So, guys, you heard my conversation with John Edwards. And he said that he wonders if his message is being heard above the louder political brawling between the Obama and Clinton camps.
Ron, is the former senator's message being heard?
Dr. RON WALTERS (Director, African-American Leadership Institute, University of Maryland): It's very difficult for it to be heard because I think one of the motivations that got him into this race was that he came in second last time and that he had the prospect to doing better. What he didn't reckon on I think sufficiently was that these two people would create the kind of dynamic that they've created. Barack Obama, on the one hand, a fairly genuine political movement of the sort with lots of dynamism in it, and, of course, Hillary Clinton, the patana(ph) of the first female president of the United States, bringing on her husband and a show of its own.
So I think that his message is having difficulty to getting through. Message devoted to the kind of things that African-Americans and other poor people feel very strongly about, this is a section of the American electorate that's always had difficulty. But in these circumstances, it's going to have greater difficulty.
CHIDEYA: Sherrilyn, a current poll from the Associated Press says that Edwards is picking up white voters. His support in South Carolina among whites has grown, according to them, from 28 percent to 40 percent. He and I talked about the South, the old South and the new South. Do you think that Southerners are ready to vote for a black man?
Professor SHERRILYN IFILL (Civil Rights Lawyer; University of Maryland School of Law): I think it's a really important question, one not to be glossed over. I tend to be fairly cynical in this regard and that, you know, I don't think it's just the South. I think we saw some of that in New Hampshire, where, you know, Obama's poll numbers were quite different than what the actual election results, at least until we have the recount, showed. And so it doesn't surprise me that Edwards' numbers would increase because I think some white voters are turned off by Hillary Clinton and they're looking for an option.
The problem with black voters and Edwards is that he's run up against what is a very strong, pragmatic streak in the black community and that is that we want to vote for somebody who can actually be elected. And the more Edwards is seen as being third or an also-ran, the less black voters, even if his message is the message that in all other circumstances they would like to hear, will not vote for him because we've got that pragmatic streak and we want to do what we think is the possible, not the impossible.
CHIDEYA: Sherrilyn, let me stick with you for a second. You recently blogged about the spat between Bill Clinton and the Obama camp. You titled it "Playa Hatin' Part II: Bill versus Barack." What do you mean?
Prof. IFILL: Well, because I think that there is - if you look at Clinton's - President Clinton's response to Barack Obama and his kind of tour that he's doing and really taking up being the attack dog in the campaign, it's really disturbing and you do have to kind of look at what's the reason for the almost red-faced, finger-waving anger that he seems to have demonstrated, this idea that somehow, Barack Obama's getting a free ride. And I think that there's a sense in which, you know, we ironically talk about Clinton being the first black president or at least Toni Morrison did, there's no question that he has - has had a very special relationship with the African-American community and I think that he feels threatened.
I think he feels that he has a right to, particularly in South Carolina, call in his markers with the black community. And so I do call it player-hating because, you know, Barack Obama holds the possibility of becoming the real first black president and…
CHIDEYA: Let me go to Ron with this question. You know, the first black president - let me bring in yet another factor. There had been people like Harold Ford who folks thought might run for president. Black America has been waiting a long time for what's called a viable candidate. What does it do to the dynamics of black-white relations if anything?
Dr. WALTERS: I think very little primarily because when you look at this year alone, everything from Katrina to Jena Six to nooses, lynches, all sorts of things happening of a racial nature with a very strong sort of mobilization-following demonstrations and so forth.
It's very clear to me that the election of a black president, it's going to have very little to do with actually dealing with those kind of things. As a matter of fact, Barack Obama, the only way that he's going to get elected, ready to do what his campaign is doing and that is to try to neutralize race. And when you're talking about Bill Clinton in so far as they try to blacken Barack Obama, what they do is to play on to the divisiveness of the racial sector and you…
CHIDEYA: So Ron, let me get this right. You don't think that Senator Obama is electable?
Dr. WALTERS: No,no, no, I didn't say that. I said that his campaign is trying to devalue race. They're trying to neutralize it in order to get him elected, in order to make him more electable. The objective of the Clinton campaign is to make him blacker, which is to say to call out his blackness and therefore, to complicate his constituency which is predominantly white.
CHIDEYA: Ron, let me stick with you and talk about the Republicans. They're campaigning in Florida. There's the GOP primary in four days and they had a debate last night. What stood out to you?
Dr. WALTERS: What stood out to me was the frantic effort of Rudolph Giuliani to really to stay in the race. And I just thought that Mitt Romney, of course, was very confident in terms of his position in Florida. And I think that what we see in Giuliani really is a failing campaign.
I think their responses having to do with the stimulus package and elevating the war in Iraq to a prominent position in the Republican pantheon, a really non-starter to most of the American people and therefore, I was very much surprised about that. But Mitt Romney was the only one who came back to say yes, this is important but right now, the economy is important and I'm the guy who can fix it.
CHIDEYA: Sherrilyn, what do you think about John McCain, for example? The way he was talked about in the Democratic debate in South Carolina was hey, he is the man to beat. They've also - on the Republican side - talked about Hillary Clinton as the person to beat. Is there a presumption on both sides that certain people are - the people who will get the nomination?
Prof. IFILL: Oh, definitely. I think so, and I think those are the two who are presumed. I certainly don't think Mitt Romney can be counted out given that he has a virtually unlimited source of private money to continue campaigning and who knows what Huckabee might be able to do although he's looking increasingly that as though he's not being as much as of a contender.
But I think that Ron is absolutely right. It was pretty remarkable last night at the debate to hear, you know, Tim Russert say, you know, six out of 10 Americans say Iraq is a mistake and we ought to get out, you know, and it's not worth it. What's your response and every single one of the Republican candidates said, you know, I disagree.
So there is this sense and in previous debates we've seen it, too. The refusal to distance themselves from the Bush policy in Iraq despite the fact that a majority of the country sees that as the wrong policy and that Bush has incredibly low approval ratings.
So they're making a calculation that I think is a dangerous one and that they may have to deal with after we get past the primaries and we get to the general election season.
CHIDEYA: Ron, we only have a little bit of time but if you talk about McCain versus Clinton or McCain versus Obama, what would be the difference between those two races, you think?
Dr. WALTERS: Well, I think that McCain would probably stay where he is in terms of his elevating, of course, the war and the fight against terrorism. I think he would make a pretty good target for somebody like Barack Obama who wants change.
Barack Obama is in this race doing as well as he is because he has had the best record on the opposition to the war in Iraq. So I think that that would be probably the most heated one. I have trouble with the fact that, you know, Hillary Clinton, of course, who has been more moderate on the war would be a stark opposition to a John McCain. So I think that most fun we would have would be between Barack Obama and McCain.
CHIDEYA: All right. Well on that note, Ron and Sherrilyn, thank you so much.
Prof. IFILL: Thank you.
Dr. WALTERS: Thank you.
CHIDEYA: Sherrilyn Ifill is a civil rights lawyer. She's also a professor at the University Of Maryland School Of Law in Baltimore. And Ron Walters is the director of the African-American Leadership Institute at the University of Maryland.
Copyright © 2008 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.
Accuracy and availability of NPR transcripts may vary. Transcript text may be revised to correct errors or match updates to audio. Audio on npr.org may be edited after its original broadcast or publication. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.