NEAL CONAN, host:
This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington.
The Israeli disengagement from the Gaza Strip is scheduled to begin next week. However it develops, this will be a major story for Israelis and Palestinians. Today we focus on the debate within Israel: on politics, personalities, on peace and on national identity. Later, as withdrawal proceeds, we'll discuss the impact for Palestinians.
Jewish settlers in Gaza have known for months that they will have to leave their homes. Today 1,700 families started to receive letters of notification and warning: Evacuate by August 17th or face physical removal. The controversy surrounding the pullout has engulfed much of Israeli society. On the surface you can see divisions by color. Those in support of the pullout wear blue; those opposed, orange. Then there's an ongoing debate that many frame in terms of peace, relations with Palestinians and respect for law, while others denounce what they regard as betrayal and retreat and cite a higher law.
In a few minutes we'll talk with a defiant settler and with a police official. We'll also hear from a supporter of the pullout plan and try to put this moment into wider political context.
Later in the program, relatives' wait for the return of the space shuttle Discovery is over, and we'll take a look back at the work of African-American media pioneer John H. Johnson.
But first, withdrawal from Gaza. If you have questions about what's happening there and why, give us a call. What would you ask a settler intent on staying? Our number here in Washington is (800) 989-8255. That's (800) 989-TALK. The e-mail address is totn@npr.org.
And we begin with Laura King. She's the Los Angeles Times bureau chief in Jerusalem and joins us from her home there.
Thanks very much for being with us.
Ms. LAURA KING (Los Angeles Times): Thanks for having me.
CONAN: You were in Gaza yesterday and today. Tell us what you saw.
Ms. KING: Well, it's really two different stories on the Palestinian side and on the settlers' side of things. They--these are just universes that do not intersect at all. On the settlers' side, you're starting to see more of an acknowledgement that this withdrawal is going to happen, is indeed going to go ahead, and families are beginning to pack up and leave. It really is very different in different parts of the Gaza Strip, however. In some of the three small northern settlements which are more secular than religious, people really are starting to leave in large numbers. One of them that we visited today is just about a ghost town at this point.
CONAN: Hmm. How forceful are those letters that people started receiving today from the Israeli government?
Ms. KING: Well, a lot of people did not receive the letters because they evaded delivery of them. Even at the main checkpoint going in they were handing them out, and many settlers simply rolled up the window of the car and refused to accept them. But basically the letter reiterates what has been known for weeks or even months at this point, that the date after which it will be illegal to be in the Gaza Strip is at midnight on Sunday, and so I think pretty much everyone is aware of that at this point.
CONAN: Is there a fear that--well, some settlers have vowed that they will not be removed except by force.
Ms. KING: Some have indeed, and I think what's probably of more concern to the army and to the police are some settler activists who have arrived from outside the Gaza Strip. They do not live there, but they are settlers from some of the more extreme settlements in the West Bank, and they have been making their way in and setting up tent cities, and they are among the ones that the authorities are expecting to put up the most physical resistance, even though, as I say, they are not actually living in Gaza.
CONAN: How is this moment being framed in terms of Israeli history?
Ms. KING: I think pretty much across the board, however people regard the decision, favorably or negatively, it is seen as a historic moment. It just brings together so many strands of the Israeli national ethos, and it's a question of competing narratives, I think. People who thought that the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza has been a mistake now feel vindicated, and those who feel that the settlement enterprise was a heroic movement are feeling very betrayed.
CONAN: Mm-hmm. The anti-pullout side says Israel is getting little or nothing in exchange for its departure.
Ms. KING: Well, I think it's a little bit more nuanced than that. For one thing, I think Israel is getting international approval on a scale that it has not enjoyed for some time. I mean, I think particularly its great ally, the United States, has made it very clear that they do want this to go ahead, and that they see Mr. Sharon's agenda in all this as being one that the United States supports. So there is that benefit, but also especially following on the death of the chairman, Arafat, late last year, a lot of people are feeling that this is a moment in which the two sides might be able to sit down and talk, which is something that just didn't happen during the whole Arafat era and especially during the last nearly five years of extremely violent fighting. So there is a sense that because of a lot of--a confluence of lots of factors, that this could really be a moment when the two sides could begin to deal with one another.
CONAN: Our number, if you'd like to join the conversation, is (800) 989-8255. Our e-mail address is totn@npr.org. Right now we're speaking with Laura King of the Los Angeles Times in Jerusalem, and let's talk with Clydia(ph) (pronounced cliddea)--am I pronouncing that right?--in Raleigh, North Carolina.
CLYDIA (Caller): No, darling, it's Clydia (pronounced clydea).
CONAN: Clydia. Excuse me. Go ahead.
CLYDIA: Clydia.
CONAN: Go ahead, please.
CLYDIA: My question is, is there a--forgive me for not knowing this--is there a place that the settlers are being put in--lousy grammar. Does the government have a plan, or do they have to make their own plan as to where they're going when they are removed?
CONAN: Laura King, where are they being moved to?
Ms. KING: Well, the settlers have lots and lots of relocation options, but the thing is, some of the most staunch opponents of the plan have refused to speak with the government and go over the various possibilities. There are a few settlements that are trying to move en masse and are going to another location in the southern part of the country in the Negev. There's one rather large community that's being constructed just about six miles north of Gaza in a very similar kind of terrain. So the--between the compensation that is being offered if people want to rent temporarily and not decide right away what they're doing and a permanent compensation that amounts to several hundred thousand dollars per family, those who are leaving, even though they--even though it's, of course, a big production for any family, they do have options and they do have alternate housing available to them.
CONAN: Clydia, thanks very much for the call, and I apologize for the mispronunciation.
CLYDIA: That's quite all right.
CONAN: OK. Appreciate it. Thanks very much.
And finally, Laura King, I did want to ask you if police, are they anticipating--as you mentioned, there are demonstrations scheduled again next week and settler allies, activists who may be theatrical next week.
Ms. KING: Well, the situation is so fluid, it really is changing from day to day, but I think in general that the tone of the demonstrations has shifted away somewhat from people actually believing that they can stop this from happening to people merely wanting to make their voices heard, and it is a democratic process, after all, and the people who oppose this the most strongly really feel that up until the very, very last moment they want to make their voices heard.
CONAN: Laura King, thank you so much for your time today. We appreciate it.
Ms. KING: Thank you.
CONAN: Laura King is Los Angeles Times bureau chief in Jerusalem and joined us from her home there.
We wanted to hear why some Israelis are planning not to leave their homes in Gaza, and with us now is Rachel Saperstein, joining us from Gush Katif. That's within the Gaza Strip.
Thank you very much for being with us today.
Ms. RACHEL SAPERSTEIN (Gaza Resident): Hello. How are you?
CONAN: I'm very well.
Ms. SAPERSTEIN: Good.
CONAN: You have, at least according to the Israeli government, less than a week to stay in your home. Are you planning to leave?
Ms. SAPERSTEIN: I am planning to stay here. My house is now filling up with guests. We will have at least 20 people in our home. We are being threatened that our water, our food supplies and our phone, electricity, cell phones will be cut off. This will be a humanitarian disaster, but we are going to hold up over here, and we're not going to give up. And this is a problem, especially for a woman my age, who's 64, and babies who are living here, and the hundreds and hundreds of visitors of all ages that are in all the school rooms, tents, shelters, any place that there is an open spot. Youngsters and families and older women have just decided to give up their placid lives, their comfortable homes and are sleeping on thin mattresses and sharing overheated rooms just to be here and to say no.
CONAN: If this does go ahead, and every indication is that it will, what--how will Israel be different the day after this goes ahead than it was the day before?
Ms. SAPERSTEIN: The people here are in despair. They're just horrified that our democratic country has turned into a dictatorship of Ariel Sharon and his cohorts. We've seen our liberties taken away from us. We've seen people pulled off buses, bus drivers pulled off buses wanting to take protesters to a--to the southern part of the country. We see--what can I tell you--terrible despair, especially in the young people, people who were raised--young kids who were raised with love of Israel, love of Zionism, love of the government, love of the army, and they're turned into youngsters whose beliefs are all being crushed. And the army, our wonderful army, their morale is crushed. Think of a young soldier who has to come in and pull out mommies and daddies and babies from their homes and drag them to buses at gunpoint. This is what Israel has turned into.
CONAN: We have to take a short break. Can you stay with us for just a moment?
Ms. SAPERSTEIN: Yes.
CONAN: OK. Rachel Saperstein is our guest. She lives in the Gaza Strip. The government has issued instructions that all Jewish settlers who live there must leave their homes next week as Israel withdraws from the Gaza Strip. We'll continue talking about this controversy after we come back from a break. If you'd like to join us, (800) 989-8255, (800) 989-TALK. The e-mail address is totn@npr.org.
I'm Neal Conan. Back after the break. It's TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
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CONAN: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington.
Israeli settlers in the Gaza Strip are receiving a final formal notice that it's time to leave. The military sent out letters yesterday to the strip's 9,000 settlers informing them their presence in the area will become illegal on August 15th. Forcible removal would begin August 17th. That's next Wednesday. Today we're discussing the fault lines in Israeli society laid bare by their long-planned withdrawal from Gaza.
To learn more about the political consequences for Israelis and Palestinians and see a detailed map of Gaza, you can go to our Web site at npr.org. And those of you who'd like to join our conversation, the phone number is (800) 989-8255, (800) 989-TALK. The e-mail address is totn@npr.org.
We're speaking right now with Rachel Saperstein, who lives in the Gaza Strip and has vowed now to leave, not willingly anyway.
Let's get a caller on the line, and this is Debra(ph), Debra calling from Balbwins--am I pronouncing that right?
DEBRA (Caller): That's right, Baldwin, Kansas.
CONAN: OK. Go ahead.
DEBRA: OK. My question, Rachel, is the following: Why would you and the other settlers who are refusing to leave want to risk the lives of children, soldiers and also go against a religious right government that you helped elect for land that, unlike the West Bank, is not religiously important to Israel? And I'll take my answer off the air. Thank you.
CONAN: Thanks for the call, Debra.
Rachel Saperstein?
Ms. SAPERSTEIN: Yes. First of all, the land of Gaza belongs to the Jews. It is part of the tribe of Judah. There has always been a Jewish presence in Gaza, and in 1967 the Jews returned home. Many of our songs that we see Friday night were written here in Gaza, written by the chief rabbi of Gaza. Remember Samson? He did all his heroics here in Gaza. Think of our father, Abraham and Isaac, coming to the area of Gerar. This is Gerar, and those who know their Bible will know what I'm talking about. This is where they dug their wells. And just as our headlines read today, when Father Isaac came here and dug his wells, the land flourished. And then the Philistines came and said, `Oh, it's flourishing. It's ours. We want it.' And instead of watching it grow and helping it grow, they poured sand--they poured sand into the wells and then the land returned to desert.
Then this is what the Jews have done today by their return to Gaza. And why are we here? Because this is our holy land and we have a small sliver of land here in the beautiful land of Israel, God's promised land to the Jewish people, and we do not want to give our land away to Hamas, to al-Qaeda, to Hezbollah and other terrorists who live here in Gaza and will begin to attack every single part of Israel with the weaponry brought in overland, not in tunnels, but overland, from Egypt. This is what we are begging the American president, we're begging Condoleezza Rice, don't allow this to happen. We're not going to be killing our children. Absolutely just the opposite. The children will be killed if we leave. We are a buffer zone and we have been living under bombardment and we stayed here and we lived here, and we showed the world what bravery is: People holding on to their land. We can't give it away. We can't just hand away the land of Israel. It belongs to the Jewish people. One little piece of land, and we're not permitted to hold on to it?
CONAN: Rachel Saperstein, thank you very much for being with us today.
Ms. SAPERSTEIN: Thank you.
CONAN: Rachel Saperstein joined us by phone from her home in Gaza.
Israeli police and military will be charged with removing settlers who, like Rachel Saperstein, may refuse to leave their homes. Joining us now to tell us about police preparation for disengagement is Israeli police spokesperson and superintendent Carla Oz. She's with us by phone from her home in Jerusalem.
Thanks very much for being with us today.
Ms. CARLA OZ (Israel Police Department): You're very welcome. Good evening.
CONAN: As I'm sure comes as no surprise to you, settlers like Rachel Saperstein have plans to stay put in what they regard as their homes. How are you gonna be able to handle that situation?
Ms. OZ: Well, the Israel police has been in preparation for six months for this mission. We've been undergoing exercises and practicing all kinds of scenarios, and we are prepared to face anything that we need to. This is a mission that we need to carry out.
CONAN: There has been special training for this?
Ms. OZ: Yes, for the last six months we've been training arm in arm. We've been working with the IDF, with the Israeli army, and there's been training in bases. Bases have been in--army bases have been turned into mock settlements so that they can practice in evacuating homes. Yesterday I participated in a practice where people were evacuated from tall buildings. Women--schools, where there were many women involved. Any kinds of special details that need to be addressed have hopefully been addressed by the people that will need to evacuate them.
CONAN: Mm-hmm. There are--there will, of course, be challenges to the police, officers who will be charged with carrying out this task, and these will not be easy things to hear.
Ms. OZ: No. First of all, it's very important to understand that we're very aware of the rights of the citizens, not only the settlers, but the citizens in Israel to have their opinions made known, and it's a democratic country, and they have the right to protest and we're here to protect them when they are protesting. And there is no winner or loser in this situation. The whole country is, you know, torn by this, but it was a decision made in a democratic process, and the police are here to carry out that mission.
CONAN: I'm wondering if you've spoken with police personnel who feel conflicted about what they may be asked to do.
Ms. OZ: Well, first of all, for instance, today we received a message from our police commissioner who sent us all a message, and in it he said that he's very well aware that as citizens and people here in Israel, we're allowed to our own opinions, but certainly we're not allowed to have it be made public, and certainly it is not to affect us in our functioning as a police officer.
CONAN: And nevertheless, there's a possibility at least that some police officers, some people in the army may decide to let their feelings be known and in effect defect.
Ms. OZ: Well, if--I can't speak for the army, but it is known that in the police, if someone wants to refuse to do his function in the disengagement, he will be released from his position. So far, we haven't seen a large amount of police officers who are refusing to undertake this mission.
CONAN: And numbers--obviously you're talking tactics, but this is going to be a very large operation, is it not?
Ms. OZ: It's a very, very large operation. We're talking just about 15,000 troops which are made up of police and army, officers who will be in the inner circle, which will be involved with actually evacuating the people from their homes. That is not taking into consideration the other police and army personnel that will be involved in the rest of the country in other functions that relate to disengagement and just keeping the peace here in Israel for the rest of the country.
CONAN: Police spokesperson Carla Oz, thank you very much for being with us today.
Ms. OZ: You're very welcome.
CONAN: She joined us by phone from her home in Jerusalem.
There are deep but recognizable divisions in Israel over the disengagement in Gaza. To learn more about the level of Israeli support for the pullout, we're joined now by Uri Dromi. He's international outreach director with the Israeli Democracy Institute, and he's with us now from the studios at the Jerusalem Post.
Thank you very much for taking the time to speak with us today.
Mr. URI DROMI (Israeli Democracy Institute): Thank you and good to be with you.
CONAN: Is it difficult for those who are in favor of this withdrawal to find themselves on the same side as Ariel Sharon, their longtime nemesis?
Mr. DROMI: Yes, talk to me. To find myself supporting and praising Ariel Sharon, I have to pinch myself to believe this happens. But the fact is that here is a man who made a U-turn, a big U-turn. He was the one who supported or was the greatest enthusiast and supporter of the settlements. He, himself, as a minister in some governments, went out of his way to help them prosper. And now he turns to these people and say, `Sorry, guys, I made a mistake and we're out of Gaza.' So for us, a people who for a long time believed that Israel shouldn't be in Gaza, this is good news.
There's a problem here, you know, because, for example, some of us know that Sharon's conduct and some people say it was not so democratic, you know, the way he brought about this decision. And I agree with that, and I think the media at least, which supports Sharon's move, tended to turn a blind eye to many of the things he did. So it's very delicate here. It's complicated, but basically, yes, people in the center and the left who, for years thought we should pull out of Gaza, suddenly find their salvation in Sharon. And it exemplifies what we know in Israel, that in Israel only the right can carry out the policies of the left.
CONAN: Tory reformers, Nixon in China, that sort of thing.
Mr. DROMI: Right.
CONAN: Now the majority of Israelis, according to opinion polls, support this engagement. Yet it appears that those who are opposed are more passionate in their opposition than those who are in favor are in favor of the pullout.
Mr. DROMI: There's one way to show it, and, you're right. You know, we are now divided as drivers, those who carry orange stripes to show their solidarity with the settlers, or blue stripes to show that they support the disengagement. And you see many more orange stripes, especially here in Jerusalem, my hometown, and this is because these people have a lot more to lose. And they're more organized and they're passionate. By the way, they are ideological people and I salute them for many of the things that they have done in the past. I think they are wrong, but still I cannot ignore the fact that these people put their money where their mouth is. They--for one, they go settle in godforsaken areas and risk their lives because they believe in an ideal, and they have a vision. So they are--they have more resolve and they are more organized, and, you know, usually the others, or the silent majority, are less active.
CONAN: Let's get a caller on the line. This is Joshua. Joshua calling us from Denver in Colorado.
JOSHUA (Caller): Yes. Hello.
CONAN: Hi. You're on the air. Go ahead.
JOSHUA: Well, it was interesting, he was saying that the blue--those of us that had blue stripes are--I just returned from Israel five days ago...
CONAN: Ah.
JOSHUA: ...after being there for two years--and having blue stripes--now I don't think anyone wants--is in favor of, like, pulling people out of their homes and separating them from their communities but--so you're not going to, like, actively voice that, I don't think. I think you--but I think the--you do want to say something about, you know, justice and peace and creating that. It's hard to actively voice pulling people out of their home.
But in regards to American Jewish experience, it seems that here in America--because, you know, the way we perceive political issues, it's either you're for or against, and I think in Israel--and my experience is that it was a lot more--it wasn't so split. Meaning you can be for a disengagement, but you're not for pulling people out of their homes. And so it pains...
CONAN: Well, doesn't one necessarily possibly mean the other? If you're going to disengage, you may have to pull people out of their houses?
JOSHUA: Exactly, but you can also--but that doesn't mean it doesn't come with pain and feeling like `Oh'--the--I--you know, I certainly understand the plight of being a settler and having--being part of a state that says that for so long supported and gave, you know, economic cutbacks and--or economic incentives to live in the (foreign language spoken), in the territories, and to--you know, obviously, it's very difficult that now the state is turning on them. But...
CONAN: Yeah, we're talking about the Gaza withdrawal. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
And, Uri Dromi, I was wondering if you had a response to Joshua's call?
Mr. DROMI: Yes, I agree with him because--let me give an example. I just yesterday spoke with a unit of soldiers and officers who are supposed to, next week, knock on doors of those settlers and tell them `Guys, sorry, but your time is up.n And the feeling there--there's a mixed feeling there. And, obviously, people are going to--I mean, the troops are gonna obey orders because this is the way democracy operates. But they are very--they have a lot of the feeling and they--and the slogan there of the whole operations, so to speak, is `We're gonna do it with resolve, but with empathy and with sensitivity.' So it's a--we're not facing enemies. We're not saying even not opponents. We're facing--we're all of us in it together and the government has decided, the Knesset, or duly elected parliament has decided, the Supreme Court ratified it, so we're gonna do it, but we're not happy about it. And maybe that explains why people don't--are not so quick to boast with the blue stripes. You know, they're resigned to the fact that we're doing it, but it's difficult for all of us.
CONAN: Joshua, thanks very much for the call.
JOSHUA: Thank you.
CONAN: Uri Dromi, we just have a minute or so left with you, but I did want to ask: Is this a moment in history? Is this a dividing line between a secular Israel that obeys the rule of law and a--well, what some would argue a more Zionist Israel that obeys the rule of God?
Mr. DROMI: Well, not Zionist, but religious rule.
CONAN: Religious Israel, yes.
Mr. DROMI: Because Zionism was initially a break--a secular break away from tradition of Judaism.
CONAN: My mistake in characterization. Yes.
Mr. DROMI: No, no, no. We don't have time to elaborate on that.
CONAN: I got you.
Mr. DROMI: But, yes, there is a chance here, or threat here, that it's going to be a big divide between people who believe that sovereignty lies in the people through the parliament and the government, and people who say that when it comes to crucial issues, authority lies elsewhere, that is, in God. And it's pity for me I saw the things last week when soldiers were--and officers and the police officers were standing in front of the protesters, and the protesters picked especially on the guys who wore skullcap, you know, the yarmulke, I mean, the religious guy, and said, `Shame on you, you should resign, you should--you're not Jewish, blah, blah.' And it's--these people are split between listening to the rabbi, their spiritual leaders, and their commanders. I think at the end of the day, our people will obey orders because if we don't respect democracy we can't go through this together.
CONAN: Uri...
Mr. DROMI: But, again, it's a big test for us all.
CONAN: Uri Dromi, thanks so much for being with us.
Mr. DROMI: Thank you.
CONAN: Uri Dromi of the international outreach center with the Israel Democracy Institute.
More after a break. This is NPR News.
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CONAN: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington.
And here are the headlines from some of the stories we're following here today at NPR News.
The Federal Reserve raised a key interest rate a quarter percentage point today. That's the 10th straight increase in an effort to head off inflation.
And the FCC has launched an investigation into allegations that Sony BMG engaged in payola. Receipts and e-mail suggest that employees at the record label exchanged gifts for air play.
You could hear details on those stories and much more, of course, later today on "All Things Considered" from NPR News.
Tomorrow on TALK OF THE NATION, in the midst of negotiations with Western powers over its nuclear capabilities, Iran invited the press to watch as it resumed work in a uranium plant. We'll discuss nuclear energy, nuclear arms and finding middle ground with Iran and North Korea tomorrow on TALK OF THE NATION.
Now let's continue our conversation about the impending withdrawal from Gaza. The resignation of finance minister Benjamin Netanyahu prompts speculation that he may engage Prime Minister Sharon in a power struggle for leadership of the Likud bloc.
Joining us now to discuss the politics of the Gaza withdrawal is Mark Heller. He's a principal research associate with the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies. He's with us now by phone from his home in Tel Aviv.
Thanks very much for being with us.
Mr. MARK HELLER (Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies): Thanks very much; it's a pleasure.
CONAN: Let's go back just a little bit when Mr. Sharon was elected as the head of the Likud bloc, and, well, his coalition splintered over this issue.
Mr. HELLER: That's right. He left the coalition that he originally had put together when the far right party split off. And he had to bring in the Labor Party in order to keep a parliamentary majority.
CONAN: Is that coalition with the Labor opposition and elements of Likud, does anybody regard that as stable?
Mr. HELLER: No, it's almost universally expected that some time after the disengagement, or at least after the holidays in the fall, that Labor will probably break away, and there will be a general agreement to dissolve parliament and then go to the polls.
CONAN: Now Benjamin Netanyahu, former prime minister, who's been in the coalition, well, he suddenly resigned at the last minute, saying he could not--well, you tell us what he had to say.
Mr. HELLER: Well, the official explanation he gave at his press conference was that his conscience didn't allow him to stay around any longer. The only reason he claims he hadn't left before was because the responsibility he felt as finance minister to carry through the reforms, economic reforms, that he had been trying to initiate.
CONAN: Now this is a serious political matter. Netanyahu would be a formidable rival for Mr. Sharon. Would he not?
Mr. HELLER: I think he would be a very serious rival for Sharon within--in terms of getting the nomination of his own party. In fact, latest public opinion poll that was published this evening of Likud Party members showed Netanyahu with a substantial lead. But, of course, things are always more complicated than they seem. There is also, working in Sharon's favor, the knowledge among Likud people that Sharon is far more appealing to the general electorate, and is, therefore, likely to bring them better results in the election than--overall results than Netanyahu would.
CONAN: So electability, a word we might remember...
Mr. HELLER: Electability is an important consideration, yes.
CONAN: Yes, indeed.
Let's get a listener on the line. This is Karen. Karen calling us from Philadelphia.
KAREN (Caller): Hi. I just returned from spending a month in Israel and I had two points that I wanted to make based on my observations from my time there.
CONAN: Mm-hmm.
KAREN: One is that the settler movement seems to have really gathered the support of those who feel disenfranchised by Israeli society. So the poor, the Mizrahi population, the people who are from Eastern or Asian or African background, the religious, the young, all of those who feel that they don't have the kind of voice in society have really gathered around this issue. I don't know if that--this is really their issue but some kind of--either the movement itself or some kind of forces of publicity, something has happened to make this a very powerful movement.
CONAN: Let's get a comment from Mark Heller. Would you agree with that?
Mr. HELLER: Well, I'm not sure I would agree with the entire characterization. I think it's definitely true that the opposition to the disengagement is much stronger among the religious than it is among the less observant population. But I'm not sure that there's a strong correlation on ethnic--so-called ethnic or class lines. By and large, there is consistent and strong majority of the overall public in favor of this. The disenfranchised that were referred to by the last caller are the traditional main constituency of Likud.
CONAN: I see.
Mr. HELLER: But they are also the ones who are most alienated and adversely affected by the economic reforms that Netanyahu has been pushing, and the angriest at him for the policies that he pursued as finance minister, and so it's a much more complicated situation than that. I don't think it's altogether accurate to depict opposition to disengagement as a social protest movement.
CONAN: Karen?
KAREN: Well, all I know is that as I walked through the various neighborhoods in Jerusalem and as I traveled through the country, talking with people, and looking at where the orange ribbons were--now up north and through--you know, I saw much more moderate opinions. And as I traveled through the poor and the Mizrahi neighborhoods, Jerusalem, I saw much more support of the settler movements. The other point that I wanted...
CONAN: OK.
KAREN: ...that I wanted to make had to do with the issue of compensation.
Mr. HELLER: Issue of--I'm sorry. I didn't hear.
CONAN: Compensation, she said.
Mr. HELLER: Oh, yes. OK.
KAREN: Many of the people who are--were--became settlers did so not--although some out of religious conviction, many out of economic--for the sake of economic opportunity. And I wanted to point out to the listening audience that housing in Israel, particularly in the major urban areas, is very, very expensive. And I was struck by your first reporter who quoted a compensation figure somewhere in the area of several hundred thousand dollars. And I know that in my neighborhood in Jerusalem, new apartments are being built and are being sold for half a million to three-quarters of a million dollars. So to say--to off--to say...
CONAN: Just to put that in financial context, yes.
KAREN: ...compensation of a couple hundred thousand dollars really is not only not compensation, it's kind of a slap in the face to somebody and so I can...
CONAN: OK, Karen...
KAREN: ...sympathize on that level...
CONAN: OK, Karen, thank you...
KAREN: ...with settlers.
CONAN: ...very much for the call.
KAREN: Thanks.
CONAN: We appreciate the point. And, Mark Heller, before we let you go, would it be fair to say that this is going to be a defining issue, the withdrawal from Gaza, in Israeli politics for at least the next period of time?
Mr. HELLER: Well, I think it has important potential ramifications, first of all, for the entrenchment of the rule of law. Secondly, it's quite possibly going to lead to some kind of ideological reassessment among the--those who have opposed the disengagement up until now. It may even prompt some kind of reconfiguration of the whole party system. And so it does have some very serious longer-term implications.
CONAN: Mark Heller, thanks very much for being with us. Appreciate your time.
Mr. HELLER: Thank you.
CONAN: Mark Heller, principal research associate with the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies, with us by phone from his home in Israel.
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