For The Men #MeToo Has Toppled, Redemption Will Take More Than An Apology Some see restorative justice as a way forward. But it takes courage to hold yourself accountable, and the men called out by the #MeToo movement might not be there yet.

For The Men #MeToo Has Toppled, Redemption Will Take More Than An Apology

  • Download
  • <iframe src="" width="100%" height="290" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" title="NPR embedded audio player">
  • Transcript


Dozens of powerful men, including two here at NPR, have lost their jobs and reputations in the cultural reckoning that is the #MeToo movement. There's clearly tremendous momentum behind it, so where does it go from here? And what's going to happen to these men? NPR's Elizabeth Blair set out to explore whether they have a shot at redemption. And a quick note that her report includes details of domestic violence and other material that may not be suitable for all listeners.

ELIZABETH BLAIR, BYLINE: First, some free advice from Los Angeles attorney Andrew Brettler.

ANDREW BRETTLER: You know, the best advice is obviously to not get yourself in a situation where you could be accused of sexual misconduct.

BLAIR: Until recently, it seems plenty of people got away with ignoring that advice.


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #1: Roughly 24 hours later Matt Lauer, anchor of NBC's "Today" show for 20 years, was fired.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #2: Two weeks after Alex Kozinski, a prominent federal appeals court judge, stepped down amid wide-ranging allegations of sexual harassment.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #3: There have been more disturbing reports regarding Mark Halperin's treatment of younger female co-workers.

BLAIR: MSNBC, CBS, NBC - these stories are just about everywhere. For those who can afford it, the path to redemption can be a legal process. Brettler represents several men accused of sexual misconduct.

BRETTLER: Those allegations these days are just as bad and damaging as a conviction.

BLAIR: Still, Brettler says, for people who lose their jobs sometimes the best response is to lay low.

BRETTLER: Sometimes the best defense is to not do anything. It is to accept the punishment or whatever decision it is that the company made and stay quiet and better yourself as a person, make whatever apologies that need to be made privately.

BLAIR: Like Andrew Brettler, Hanna Stotland spends a lot of time helping people accused of sexual misconduct.

HANNA STOTLAND: Some of them have done something wrong. Some of them I'll never know.

BLAIR: Stotland sees a lot of parallels between her job and what's happening in the public sphere. As an admissions counselor, Stotland works with college students. Some of her clients are men who've either been expelled or left universities because of sexual misconduct allegations. She helps them apply to new schools.

STOTLAND: A big part of what I do is help them decide what is - what's the right framework for them to talk about it? This is a narrative of their crisis and recovery.

BLAIR: And it is not easy.

STOTLAND: There's a few reasons why sexual misconduct allegations are particularly heavy as a drag on an application. The first is that they're scary. Nobody wants to bring a predator into their community. A second reason is that there's a perception that this sort of misconduct as compared to any other kind of misconduct has to do with something fundamentally unchangeably wrong with you. And whether that's true or not, it's something that everybody who's accused of this particular set of misbehavior has to cope with.

BLAIR: Stotland says for her students, it's about finding a university with sympathetic ears. Sometimes that takes years. But so far, the students she's worked with have been able to graduate.

STOTLAND: So it's quite an odyssey. But if you get everything else right, you can come back from this.

BLAIR: As for these high-profile cases playing out in the media, Stotland says there are some lessons her students can learn. Take comedian Louis C.K. He admitted to masturbating in front of women without their consent, as reported here by ABC.


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #4: In his lengthy statement, Louis C.K. says that he is remorseful. The power I had over these women is that they admired me, and I wielded that power irresponsibly, which...

STOTLAND: The most important right thing he said was the allegations are true. That is the single most important thing that you can say. If they're true, you need to say that they're true.

BLAIR: But Stotland acknowledges an apology is only the beginning. It was after Louis C.K. confessed that companies severed ties with him.


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER #5: Netflix has already canceled his standup special while HBO is removing his projects from their on-demand services.

ATTIYA KHAN: What's happening is men are basically being fired.

BLAIR: Attiya Khan is a filmmaker based in Toronto. She also spent years helping victims of domestic abuse.

KHAN: Part of my fear is that we're getting rid of somebody, but then where do they go? And that person becomes another workplace's problem, another person's problem.

BLAIR: And not part of a solution to end sexual misconduct, says Kahn. She herself is a survivor of domestic violence. When she was a teenager, her boyfriend at the time was physically abusive.

KHAN: I had been coping with the trauma from his abuse for over 20 years. And so I thought that maybe it was possible that he still carried, you know, some of the weight of what he did to me. And I really wanted to hear about that. But I also - more importantly, I really wanted the opportunity to tell him exactly what he did to me in detail.

BLAIR: Kahn asked her ex-boyfriend if he'd be willing to sit down with her and a therapist and let her film their conversations. He agreed. As Khan tells her story in excruciating detail to the therapist, her abuser, who she refers to only as Steve, sits next to her.


KHAN: I remember being dragged to the bed and, you know, hit more...

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: How were you being hit?

KHAN: Like, punched.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Where were you being punched?

KHAN: In the face.

BLAIR: Conversations like these were a critical part of Khan's healing process.

KHAN: To have him listen to me was almost the most important thing for me. And it was part of him being accountable and taking responsibility. It was so satisfying.


KHAN: To have the person who hurt you sit there and listen to you and not blame you for it and admit to what they did and to remember some of the abuse - even though Steve didn't remember a lot of it in our first conversations, he started to remember.

BLAIR: This process is called restorative justice. With mediation, victims and offenders come together to repair the harm that's been done. It's something writer Stephanie Cassatly thinks about a lot. In 1980, Cassatly's mother was murdered while she was working as a cashier at a convenience store in New Orleans. Her mother's killer spent the rest of his life at Angola prison. Cassatly says for 20 years, she was angry and wanted revenge.

STEPHANIE CASSATLY: The thought of forgiveness to me felt like I was sort of giving up a limb and then maybe I might regret it later, or that I was letting him off the hook.

BLAIR: Until she started looking into restorative justice and changed her definition of forgiveness.

CASSATLY: My working definition basically for forgiveness is that it no longer wishes ill or seeks revenge on the person who hurt us, and that it basically untethers us from them and enables us to have a different future from the past.

BLAIR: When it comes to the #MeToo movement, Cassatly sees restorative justice as a possible way forward.

CASSATLY: I think we're in the bomb throwing stage of it still. We're not even sure where this is going. And I think it's going to take some time for us to get any resolution. And so what I'm realizing about a lot of these women is that they have to get their power back.

BLAIR: Stephanie Cassatly and Attiya Khan both say that is going to take a very long time.

KHAN: A lot of men who have harmed women are coming forward very quickly after it's becoming public that they've hurt someone and they're saying sorry. It needs to be more than that. And you need to make sure that the people who have been harmed want your apology. And you need to ask them, like, what else is it that you need from me? How can I help you heal after I've wronged you? That's the part that's missing.

BLAIR: The offenders called out by the #MeToo movement might not be there yet. It takes courage to be held accountable. Elizabeth Blair, NPR News.


Copyright © 2018 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at for further information.

NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.