NEAL CONAN, host:
This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. No State of the Union speech can possibly address the full range of our worries and accomplishments. Last night, President Bush spoke to the nation from inside the bubble of Washington, D.C., and many of the issues that he raised are unquestionably important to millions of Americans: health care, energy, immigration and the war.
But he spoke from his special vantage point. Today, we're asking our guests and our callers to get past politics for an hour. We hope to hear not reactions to what the president said or didn't say, but assessments of the state of the union from the special place where you sit, from your perspective as a businessman, a farmer, a New Yorker or a Californian, as a mom or a teacher, artist or factory worker.
What's the state of the union? Our number is 800-989-8255, 800-989-TALK. Our e-mail address is talk@npr.org. And we begin with the screenwriter and director Nora Ephron, most recently the author of "I Feel Bad About My Neck." She joins us from her home in New York. Nice to have you on the program.
Ms. NORA EPHRON (Screenwriter, Director; Author, "I Feel Bad About My Neck"): Thank you, Neal.
CONAN: What do you think is the state of the union?
Ms. EPHRON: Well, you know, right before the State of the Union message went on, I was watching "24," which was on my TiVo. I don't know if you're hooked on "24," Neal...
CONAN: Guilty.
Ms. EPHRON: And on "24" - I'm not ruining anything for anyone - a nuclear bomb has just been set off in L.A., and Kiefer Sutherland drops in on his brother, whom he hasn't seen in nine years, and they don't mention one thing about the nuclear bomb. They're just sort of chatting amongst themselves.
And I had a little sense of that last night as I watched the president - who took, I think, 32 minutes before he got to Iraq - you know, that same kind of sense of how could you be talking about anything but this thing, which you can't spend five or 10 minutes with people without people wanting to talk about how this has happened.
And on and on he went. I mean, you just said it's a speech where he can raise an issue. Well, it's a speech where an issue gets raised only to be lowered in exactly 21 words, because everything is sort of one little - one-sentence hits punctuated by this insane ritual of are they going to clap? Are they not going to clap? Are they going to stand? Are they not going to stand? How many of them will stand? How many of them won't stand?
It's quite a - in terms of assessing the disconnect between us and them, it's an amazing night. That was some of what I was feeling as I watched it last night.
CONAN: As you look at it from your perspective, the state of the country from your - you're a writer, a comedian, do a lot of different things. Everything, you think, is colored by the war?
Ms. EPHRON: Well, I do feel that. I do feel that almost - well, I don't know because I'm just living in - you know, I live in the bluest city in a blue state. I live in New York. So some of what I'm saying is colored by that. But I think especially in these last few weeks, as we all had so much hope after the election, only to discover the horrifying truth that the man was still president, you know, and that he can therefore send 20,000 more people into harm's way without anybody apparently being determined to stop him.
So, yes. I do feel that. I feel that it's almost all that people are talking about when they're not talking about, of course, what they should have for dinner and all the things that also make our world go around.
CONAN: Or if they'd ever been to Valencia, which has now been evaporated by the nuclear bomb.
Ms. EPHRON: Right, yes. Never mind the oranges.
(Soundbite of laughter)
CONAN: Nora Ephron, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it.
Ms. EPHRON: Well, thank you, Neal.
CONAN: Nora Ephron's latest book is called "I Feel Bad About My Neck and Other Thoughts on Being a Woman." We want to hear your thoughts on what the state of the union is, not necessarily a reaction to what the president had to say last night, but from your perspective as a businessman, as a teacher, whatever. 800-989-8255, 800-989-TALK. E-mail is talk@npr.org.
And let's go to - this is Fred. Fred's with us from Chicago.
FRED (Caller): Hi, how's it going?
CONAN: Very well, thanks.
FRED: Well, in my opinion, it's not going so well. Bush, you know, fool, we all know this, no different than anyone else, though. And I think that's the great shame we put on everything, that we think that there's some difference between a Republican or a Democrat or anyone who possibly wants to be president. You've got to ask yourself: If you wanted to be president, would you vote for yourself? I don't think so. I mean, it's just the nature of the beast. People who want power are inevitably no good, and things will never change.
CONAN: Things will never change.
FRED: Will never change, until this empire crumbles and another one rises in its place, let's be honest.
CONAN: Fred, thanks very much for the call.
FRED: Bye.
CONAN: Bye-bye. And let's see if we can check in with Steve. Steve's with us from Oshkosh in Wisconsin.
STEVE (Caller): Hi Neal, thanks.
CONAN: Go ahead.
STEVE: I think on the Iraq topic, it's rather hopeless. I think no mention of the hundreds of thousands killed in Iraq was shameful. But I'm more concerned, actually, that I thought we might have some movement towards a renewable future in serious conservation. A 20 percent cut in gasoline seems laughable, that simply by driving small cars, a year from now we could cut our gasoline usage in half. And that would've been a fair thing to ask.
CONAN: And so you think that the president - beyond Iraq, his ambitions on the domestic front were too modest?
STEVE: Yeah. I mean, talking about driving the same fleet that we have now and switching to ethanol hardly seems like a move forward.
CONAN: All right, thanks very much for the call. Appreciate it.
STEVE: Thank you.
CONAN: Joining us now is Elizabeth Nunez, the award-winning author of "Prospero's Daughter," among other books. She's a distinguished professor at Medgar Evers College in New York, and joins us now from the studios of our member station in Brooklyn, WNYE. Nice to have you on the program today.
Professor ELIZABETH NUNEZ (Medgar Evers College; Author, "Prospero's Daughter"): Thank you. Nice to be on the program.
CONAN: You've been in New York now for more than 30 years after you moved there from Trinidad.
Prof. NUNEZ: Yes, I have.
CONAN: Well, from your perspective, what's the state of the union?
Prof. NUNEZ: Well, I tell you, this summer I spent about two months in Europe, and then I just came back from the Caribbean where I was in my home island, Trinidad. And for the first time, I was faced with this really overt hostility towards America.
I just - I was flabbergasted. Just everywhere I went in Europe - I mostly was in the south of France, in Rome and in Athens, a little bit in Switzerland, and then of course a lot in the Caribbean. And everywhere I went, I just heard open - just overt hostility towards America. And I tried to slip in my little piece and say well, it's not like this. It's not like this. You're talking about the government. You're not talking about the people. And, of course, the response I got each time was, well, didn't the people vote for the government?
I think that, you know, as an immigrant, I just absolutely love this country. It has opened opportunities for me that I never would have had, and so it's very disheartening for me to listen to that and to find myself, you know, on the ropes trying to defend the best I can, trying to defend this country.
And all of this has happened, I think, since - mostly since 2001, since we went to war. People just simply cannot understand, I think - and you know, what strikes me about this, this kind of reaction is at the same time people are saying this, as I look around me, I see all around me symbols of America in the fast-food stores, in the clothing stores.
I mean, lots of people have commented that the French people are now no longer the fashionistas that they were. They are dressing, you know, as casually as Americans. So you have that on the one hand, and yet out of people's mouths comes this - you know, this real hostility. I think that's such a shame that this great country that has been so generous to so many finds itself on the defensive, and the person traveling with an American passport suddenly finds himself or herself having to explain.
CONAN: As you look from your perspective - though, as a teacher and writer living in New York and living your life - is the state of the union doing well? Are your students prospering? Are - is the school doing well? You yourself?
Prof. NUNEZ: Well, you know, New York City is probably the major entrance for immigrants into the United States.
CONAN: Yes, the membrane between the country and the rest of the world, yeah.
Prof. NUNEZ: Exactly. And one of the ways for assimilation, one of the ways for progress in this country is through education. So people have relied on the public system of higher education. And, of course, things have changed in the years since I've been in the university, meaning that we have watched it go from a free university to a university of tuition, now to just, you know, a tuition that in some ways makes it very difficult for people to pay.
And then on top of that, there are all kinds of systems now put into place that do not allow - do not give this kind of assistance you need to students who need - who either come with another language or may, indeed, come with English language, but certainly with a different culture. So they have to acclimatize to the country.
And without those kinds of assistance, without that kind of help, a lot of people find the door closed for them to the university. My college is - my college is particularly interesting, Medgar Evers College in Brooklyn. Brooklyn, as you know, we had a Calypsonian from Trinidad.
We used to say that Brooklyn is the capital of the Caribbean because, you know, because so many Caribbean immigrants from the English-speaking Caribbean end up in Brooklyn. And so a lot of these immigrants come to my college - Medgar Evers College. And, you know, we are the ones that - we are the college that is faced with this enormous task, and I'm afraid not with much - not with all the help we need to help these students make this transition - to give them the keys.
And I just want to say something, Neal, on the plus side.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Prof. NUNEZ: On the plus side here, the New York Times did an article not too long ago about the wealthiest blacks in New York City, and they found that in Queens, New York - blacks in Queens, New York have done better - are doing better economically than even whites or Asians, which is really a first. And the blacks, as they noted them, end up being immigrants. They are by and large West Indian immigrants, which says a lot for, you know, this anti-immigrant feeling that we have in too many places.
CONAN: Elizabeth Nunez, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. Appreciate it.
Prof. NUNEZ: You're most welcome.
CONAN: Elizabeth Nunez, a professor at Medgar Evers College in New York. Her latest book is "Prospero's Daughter." We're moving past Beltway politics this hour to get your view of the state of the union. After the break, country star Merle Haggard joins us. We'll talk with other creative thinkers. More of your calls, too - 800-989-8255. E-mail us, talk@npr.org. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
(Soundbite of music)
CONAN: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. Last night, the president delivered his state of the union address. Democrats responded. Today, we want to move past the political analysis and punditry and talk with you about the state of the country. And we're checking in with a diverse group of creative thinkers to hear their thoughts on the state of the union. Of course, you're more than welcome to join us. Call and tell us the state of the union from where you sit - from you special vantage point. Our number here in Washington is 800-989-8255, 800-989-TALK. E-mail is talk@npr.org.
On the line with us now is singer/songwriter Merle Haggard, probably best known for the song "Okie from Muskogee." He joins us now from his home in northern California. It's a pleasure to talk to you today.
Mr. MERLE HAGGARD (Singer/Songwriter): Good morning.
CONAN: You're a musician, still touring the country. You get to see a lot of people in a lot of different places. What's the state of the union from your vantage point?
Mr. HAGGARD: Well, it's - you know, it's pretty much, I think, attached to the war effort and, you know, there's not much else happening besides that. I think a lot of the corporations have moved south of the border, and we've got problems at the border. And we've got people driving on the highways that you don't know whether or not they actually understand the laws or can read the signs. You've got a condition of highway - highways that are bad in America. Bridges are falling through. None of that was mentioned in the speech. You know, the condition of our country, you know, we're talking about gathering up 90,000 troops. I wonder how we'd do that.
(Soundbite of laughter)
CONAN: But you think Topic A amongst the people you meet is the war?
Mr. HAGGARD: Absolutely. Yeah, the topic of the war - what, you know, is my son going to have to go? I have a 14-year-old son. I don't want him to go to Baghdad. I have a 17-year-old daughter. She's also eligible now. That's not what I had in mind.
CONAN: You've written a lot of songs about working-class men and women. You've been one yourself at various times in your life. Things gotten better or worse, do you think, for blue-collar workers?
Mr. HAGGARD: Well, I think it's went away. It just doesn't exist anymore. I mean, if you watch the - I watch the Bloomberg Channel here and you see, I mean, somebody else - somebody laid 10,000 people off yesterday, and somebody laid 10,000 off today. And, you know, it's the story of America. And where these people are going, I don't know. That's the state of the union as I see it. I don't think it's ever been much worse.
CONAN: I was going to say, you sound discouraged.
Mr. HAGGARD: Well, I am discouraged. I'm an American. I want America to do well. But if you take the temperature of America, I'm not sure, it might be a little above normal.
CONAN: Merle Haggard, thanks very much for being with us today. We appreciate your time.
Mr. HAGGARD: Thank you.
CONAN: Merle Haggard, of course, the famous country singer/songwriter with us from his home in northern California.
This is an e-mail we got from Claudia in North Carolina.
I'm a nurse practitioner in a rural county in North Carolina. Many of my patients do not have health insurance. A patient of mine was diagnosed with breast cancer recently. She initially refused to have a mastectomy done because she's afraid that she'll lose her house. A surgeon set her up with a payment plan. Many of my patients have to decide whether to buy food or medication. I think the state of the union is very bad when people cannot afford healthcare.
And let's get another caller on the line. This is Sean, Sean with us from Grand Valley in Colorado.
SEAN (Caller): Yes, Neal. I just wanted to say that the state of the union around me and around my family and my wife and I is improved. We both have graduated from college. The educational benefits that we receive and the jobs that we have successfully gotten has improved our lives greatly. And I think right now I have had the first insurance as far as medical goes that I have ever had besides school or military benefits. And then, of course, on the other hand, my life is kind of in a shambles because I am a member of the Army National Guard, and I've been to Iraq and Afghanistan and have been notified to return.
So I'm kind of mixed emotions about the state of the union.
CONAN: Yeah, I wonder, do you fear for your job if you go back to Iraq?
SEAN: I do and I don't. I work in the gas fields in Colorado, and so it's kind of a boom industry anyways. And so we're in a boom, and everybody's making a lot of money.
CONAN: You're pumping natural gas?
SEAN: Correct. And so the natural gas industry here is eventually going to go away. Now when it goes away, we don't know. So is it going to be here when I return from Iraq in a year and a half? I'm not sure.
CONAN: And as you think about all that time away and your family, that can't be easy, either.
SEAN: No, it's not. And it adds a lot of stress to a person's life. And the only thing that you really have to look forward to is that you do have the career and you have the income and you have the insurance. Basically, you have stability in your life currently, even though you know in the near future the stability's going to go away.
CONAN: Well, Sean, we wish you the best of luck.
SEAN: Thank you very much.
CONAN: Appreciate the call, too. Joining us now is Ana Marie Cox. Many of you know her from her days as Wonkette. Of course, now she's the Washington editor for Time.com. And she joins us from her office here in Washington, D.C. Ana Marie Cox, always good to speak with you.
Ms. ANA MARIE COX (Washington Editor for Time.com): Good to be here.
CONAN: Now, you're the one guest that we've arranged from inside the beltway. Where do you think we are today as a nation?
Ms. COX: Well, I think that - I think we're waiting for to see something change. I think that we're - to judge by what it seems like people, you know, that are set in the midterm elections, that they would really like something to happen that's not the same sort of bleak outlook that we apparently have in Iraq. And I think that Iraq has sort of, I think, tainted the entire kind of way we're looking at our nation right now. It's the Number One issue for voters, and it makes - it sort of casts a pall on even news that should be pretty good.
CONAN: That should be pretty good because as you look around, the economy - in most respects, or at least for many people - is doing well. Not for everybody, of course. But there is good news. It is just seemingly overshadowed.
Ms. COX: Yeah, that's what I think is the case. I think that that plus a sense that our - you know, this administration and the Congress that was in place prior to midterm elections that the culture of corruption - as Democrats like to call it - I think that also has made people wonder about their leaders.
And obviously, they've given the Democrats - I think the vote in 2006 was not necessarily something that was saying that they - a great vote in confidence for the Democrats. I think it's saying that, you know, let's give the other team a chance. And I have to say, that they're off to an okay start. But, you know, obviously, it's early yet. And clearly, the energy of the Bush administration is going to be working in the opposite direction.
CONAN: What energy there is and how much there's going to be remains to be seen. But as you observe this city, one of the wondrous things is to watch Washington, D.C. as power changes.
Ms. COX: Yeah. Yeah.
CONAN: There's so many fascinating things. Somebody I know well said this is the kind of town where people put their Bush/Cheney bumper stickers on the day after the election.
Ms. COX: That's right. And then it's also funny, I mean, I think, from a reporter's perspective, what happens to your Rolodex. You know, this whole section that you hadn't really been using before of all the Democratic staffers, you know, suddenly becomes very well thumbed, and you start reintroducing yourself. There are a lot of drinks bought for people. And of course, like, what I think is sort of fascinating right now, Pelosi becoming Speaker of the House - a really fascinating, historic thing - I've heard men talk about fashion more eagerly than perhaps ever before.
(Soundbite of laughter)
CONAN: Really?
Ms. COX: I mean, not necessarily in an admiring way, but definitely - I mean, it's now just a topic of conversation which I don't think - I mean, I guess Condoleezza Rice occasionally shows up in her dominatrix boots, and that might get some tongues wagging. But, you know, everyone knows how much Nancy Pelosi's pearls cost - $35,000.
CONAN: Thirty-five thousand dollars.
(Soundbite of laughter)
CONAN: Well, it's nice to know. I must admit, I have found myself wondering, what do they call that haircut?
(Soundbite of laughter)
Ms. COX: Well actually, we were just talking about this last night. Again, my bureau chief - a guy - was suddenly saying, like, hey, look. They all have the same haircut. All the girls have the same haircut. He was calling it the Hillary.
CONAN: The Hillary?
Ms. COX: Yeah.
CONAN: Huh. I guess there's been a theory, of course, that in the Democratic side, you could have the old Hillary run against the new Hillary and different haircuts, too.
Ms. COX: Yeah, yeah. That's - well, you know, like - and also they all will wear a red suit, so. But I think - I think this is probably a good thing that we're even having discussions about women, of course, in power. And I have to say that watching last night, I don't have really strong, necessarily, positive feelings about Pelosi, but I did - you know, my heart stirred a little bit looking at the fact that there was a woman sitting behind the president.
CONAN: With a hammer.
Ms. COX: Yeah.
CONAN: Ana Marie Cox, thanks very much for your time.
Ms. COX: Thank you.
CONAN: Ana Marie Cox, Washington editor for Time.com. She joined us from her office here in Washington, D.C. Let's go to - this is Bill. Bill's with us from Flint, Michigan. Bill, are you there?
BILL (Caller): Yeah, I am.
CONAN: Go ahead, please. You're on the air.
BILL: Yeah, I just - first of all, I just think George Bush is a president, and I believe that you should respect the authority of your country. And we send a really negative message to everyone around the world when we're in such disagreement and disarray. I think we should support what he does. And we're on at Flint, the city of Flint, is always kind of bad rap because our factories left town and stuff.
CONAN: Mm-hmm.
BILL: I'm a construction worker, and I work all the time. And as long as I do a good job, I'll keep working. And I don't, you know, I just - all I hear about is the Iraq war, and there's a lot of other things going on.
CONAN: So from your vantage point, things are going well?
BILL: Right. Our state is not doing that good, maybe because of state leadership. But nationwide, I think our nation is doing good. I'm into morals and stuff like that, and I believe that morals have come to the forefront because of the leadership.
CONAN: Well, Bill, thanks very much, and continued good luck to you.
BILL: Okay. Thanks.
CONAN: Bye-bye. Another thinker we're going to hear from now, philosophy professor Kwame Anthony Appiah. He joins us from the Princeton University studios. And it's good to have you back on TALK OF THE NATION.
Professor KWAME ANTHONY APPIAH (Philosophy, Princeton University): Nice to be here, Neal.
CONAN: From your vantage point, what's the state of the union?
Prof. APPIAH: Well, it's hard - as you said - to cover the whole state of the union in a brief remark. But let me make an observation as a university professor, which is that we have an incredible university system. There are no doubt problems about the financing of it for some people, and so on. But fundamentally, we have an astonishing system of higher education. It draws students and teachers from - the best students and teachers from all around the world.
I don't wish to include myself in that by - in a boastful way. But I did come here because of the wonders of the American tertiary education system. And it's a very great strength, and it's a very important part of what's good about the state of the Union, I think is that we have this terrific university system that is open to the world. And if I can just mention the, you know, the one current bee in my bonnet, which is my cosmopolitan bee, my bee about how important it is for us to be open to the world and for the world to be open to us. What made the last century, I think, the American century among other things was that openness.
Our science was led by Einstein in the physical sciences and Hans Bethe, and in the social sciences by von Neumann(ph). And many of the people who gave us our intellectual leadership, many of the people who have given us our great business leadership - Andy Grove at Intel. These are all people who came from other places and have come here and contributed to our country. And we've also educated many people who have gone out into the world. There's a Princeton alum running Bangladesh at the moment. And there's a Princeton alum, of course, about to take over in Iraq as the lead general - General Petraeus.
So we're - I think that openness to the world was part of what gave us our economic strength, our intellectual strength, our cultural strength. And I think that it's still there. I think people still do feel that it's important to be open to the world. I wish more Americans were able to travel more, and I wish more Americans were able to listen more, I think, to the voices in the world, because I think - Elizabeth Nunez was talking, I think, rightly about the fact that there is a lot of anger and hatred of the United States in the world today.
And part of it, I think, is inevitable if you're a powerful nation. But I think part of it is not necessary, and it flows from our failure to demonstrate respect for the views and concerns of other people, our sense that we're in the right always, and that other people just have to listen to us and do what they're told.
And if we knew more, if Americans - not just American leaders, but ordinary Americans - were more aware of how we look, which we could - which we could do now by listening to other people, by watching movies from other places, by going on the Internet and seeing, you know, Web sites that don't have dot-com on after them but have some other countries saying - I think if we open ourselves in those ways, we can continue to be strong, and we can continue to bring people back to - we'll change. We could also, I think, deal with the problem of the way in which we are perceived in the world, which is as kind of contemptuous and disrespectful of other people.
CONAN: We're speaking with Kwame Anthony Appiah. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
I was interested when you were talking about America being more open in the previous century. This was in America, of course, that barred most immigration from, what? Mid-1920s to the mid-1970s.
Prof. APPIAH: Right. No, the openness that there was though, the - did make a big difference. And I think the openness that began with the changes in immigration law in the late '60s and the early '70s has been good for us. And I hope that in the discussions about immigration as an issue at the state of the nation, we'll continue to recognize a great deal, as I say, of our intellectual, our cultural and our economic strength comes from our openness -comes from the fact that we let people in and that we send people out, that we send our goods out into the world. That our business people go out into the world to sell things. And in order to do that, you have to have that kind of openness or willingness to listen, as well as to dictate the terms of what goes on in the world.
And I've been going around the country sort of talking about cosmopolitanism, and I find that there is a real resonance for that idea in many, many places. Many young people, in particular, feel, yes. We need to understand the rest of the world better. We need to be more respectful to the rest of the world. And not just because it'll make our politics safer, because a world of people who hate you is not a safe world, but because it's also exciting and interesting to learn about other places and to be in interaction with people in other places.
And we've been strengthened in our politics, you know, people like Colin Powell, Henry Kissinger, Madeleine Albright - to mention three secretaries of state who have either came from abroad or had parents who came from abroad. I think we have that strength that comes from this openness, and I believe that that is still a real, an important part of what America - most Americans, many Americans, anyway feel, and something that I hope - something that's, in a way, positive about the state of our nation.
And it has - as I say, in my particular little bit of the world, in the university world - meant that we do have these terrifically good universities. When people worry about our being taken over by China or India in the coming century, I have to tell them that they simply don't have the resources, the intellectual resources to challenge us for a very long time, because they don't have the kind of university system that we have.
CONAN: Kwame Anthony Appiah, thank you very much for your time today.
Prof. APPIAH: It's a pleasure.
CONAN: Mr. Appiah's most recent book is "Cosmopolitanism." I'm Neal Conan. More on your thoughts on the state of the union when we come back from a short break. 800-989-8255. This is NPR News.
(Soundbite of music)
CONAN: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington.
If you're tuning in now for our regular Political Junkie segment, we're going to punt that to tomorrow as well, and we're going to have a live studio audience in 4A. And Ken Rudin will be there, and well, probably because he's lost in West Virginia today. Then, it'll be fun tomorrow, and we'll have the Political Junkie for you.
Today, we're talking about the state of the union. Not the politics and partisan reaction to what we heard last night, but rather, candid assessments of the state of the country from your perspective - from where you live, from where you work, from where you teach or study. Give us a call. 800-989-8255, 800-989-TALK. Or send e-mail to us, talk@npr.org. Our next guest is best known for his portraits of two cities, Gotham - the home of Batman - and Sin City, a town where tales of sin and crime are spun in film noir style.
He directed the film version of "Sin City" in 2005. Writer, artist, and film director Frank Miller joins us now from our bureau in New York. Nice to have you back on TALK OF THE NATION.
Mr. FRANK MILLER (Comic Writer and Artist; Film Director, "Sin City"): Thank you, Neal.
CONAN: And Frank, what's the state of the union?
Mr. MILLER: Well, I don't - I believe I don't find myself worrying so much for the state of the union as I do about the state of the home front. It seems to me quite obvious that our country and the entire Western world is up against an existential foe that knows exactly what it wants. And we're behaving like a collapsing empire. Mighty cultures never - are almost never conquered. They crumble from within. And frankly, I think that a lot of Americans are acting like spoiled brats because everything that isn't working out perfectly every time.
CONAN: And when you say we don't know what we want, is this - what's the cause of that, do you think?
Mr. MILLER: I think part of it is what the way people like I were educated. We're constantly told that all cultures are equal, and that every belief system is as good as the next. And it led to a kind of - and generally, that America was to be known for its flaws rather than its virtues. When you think of what Americans accomplished, building these amazing cities and all the good it's done in the world, it's kind of disheartening to hear so much hatred of America, not just from abroad, but internally.
CONAN: A lot of people would say that what America has done abroad has led to the doubts and even the hatred of some of its own citizens.
Mr. MILLER: Well, okay, then let's finally talk about the enemy. Somebody, for some reason, nobody seems to be talking about who we're up against and the sixth century barbarism they actually represent. These people saw people's heads off. They enslave women. They genetically mutilate their daughters. They do not behave by any cultural norms that are sensible to us. I'm speaking into a microphone that never could have been the product of their culture. And I'm living in a city where 3,000 of my neighbors were killed by thieves of airplanes they never could've built.
CONAN: As you look at people around you, though, why do you think that they are so - as you would put it - self-absorbed, even whiny?
Mr. MILLER: Well, I'd say for the same reason the Athenians and the Romans were. We've got a little good right now. Where I would fault President Bush the most was that in the wake of 9/11, he motivated our military, but he didn't call the nation into a state of war. And he didn't explain that this would take though a communal effort against common foe. So we've been kind of fighting a war on the side, and sitting off like a bunch of Romans complaining about it.
Also, I think that George Bush has an uncanny knack of being somebody people hate. I thought Clinton inspired more hatred than any president I'd ever seen. But I've never seen anything like Bush hatred. It's completely mad.
CONAN: And as you talk to people in the streets, the people you meet at work, socially, what - how do you explain this to them?
Mr. MILLER: Mainly in historical terms - mainly saying that the country that fought Okinawa and Iwo Jima is now spilling precious blood, but so little that by comparison, it's almost ridiculous. And the stakes are as high as they were then.
Mostly, I hear people say, well, you know, why did we attack Iraq, for instance? Well, we're taking on an idea, the same way that when we - I mean, nobody questions why we, after Pearl Harbor, attacked Nazi Germany. It was because we were taking on a form of global fascism. We're doing the same thing now.
CONAN: They did declare war on us, but...
Mr. MILLER: Yeah, but what I mean is - so did Iraq.
CONAN: Frank Miller, thanks very much for your time today. We appreciate it.
Mr. MILLER: Thank you.
CONAN: Frank Miller, writer, artist and film director. He's the creative force behind the Batman books, "The Dark Knight Returns," and "The Dark Knight Strikes Again." His new film, "The 300" opens in March. He joined us from our bureau in New York.
Let's see if we can get another caller on the line. This is Marty. Marty's with us from Green Bay in Wisconsin.
MARTY (Caller): Hi, thanks for taking my call.
CONAN: Sure.
MARTY: My son volunteered after 9/11 for the Marines, and at the time, I was doing a protest march with my 5-year-old son with a banner that said: The longest inspection is better than the shortest war. And my oldest son said, Mom, I signed up. I volunteered because I want to help the women and children in Afghanistan. And that's where we were headed at the time. That's who bin Laden - that's who attacked us, not Iraq. And now I find out that my son will be part of the surge that's going in.
What the president doesn't acknowledge is the hundreds of thousands of not just casualties in Iraq, but the hundreds of thousands of families that have been disrupted in this country - the 30,000-plus kids that are coming back with missing limbs, the countless dead and refugees in Iraq.
I mean, the prime minister of Iraq asked George Bush back in November to get out, take the troops out of Iraq. And he said I'll think about it. Why aren't we - why isn't he listening to so many voices say we should not be there?
CONAN: Is it your younger son or your older son who's...
MARTY: My oldest son volunteered for the Marines.
CONAN: And so he's the one who will be sent to Anbar Province as part of the surge?
MARTY: Yeah, as part of the surge.
CONAN: And obviously, you must feel - while he's gone, it's an awful experience. You must listen - every time you hear a newscast - you must flinch every time the phone rings.
MARTY: Absolutely, absolutely. And I really wish President Bush would acknowledge what he has done. Iraq did not attack us on 9/11. Go back to what originally what it was, and if the prime minister of Iraq is saying we'd be better off without the U.S. troops there, why aren't we listening?
CONAN: That's not exactly what he said, but anyway. Thanks very much for the call, Marty, appreciate it.
MARTY: Thank you.
CONAN: Bye-bye. Our next guest is Richard Land. He's president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission in Tennessee. He's also host of a weekday radio program for faith and family. Thanks very much for being with us today.
Dr. RICHARD LAND (President, Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission): You bet.
CONAN: And in your view, what's the state of the union?
Dr. LAND: Pretty good. In fact, better than I think most people are led to believe by the national media. In fact, I got so exercised about it, I just finished writing a book called "The Divided States of America?" - question mark - "What Both Liberals and Conservatives are Missing in the God and Country Shouting Match."
I just got so tired of being interviewed for national programs - not NPR I'm talking about here, but other national programs - where, you know, they would say well, you know, you're not quite what we're looking for. Your view's too nuanced. And what they do is they get the two most extreme positions they can find, they put them on together and let them yell at each other for half an hour, and then they think that's balanced journalism.
And I think it leads the country to believe that the country is more divided than it actually is. Now we do have serious disagreements about the direction of the country, but I think there's far more common ground than Americans are led to believe that there is by the national electronic and print media, and I find this everywhere I go.
I'm in literally hundreds of Baptist churches all across the country every year, and I find a lot more optimism than you would suspect from listening to the national media.
CONAN: Sure.
Dr. LAND: And I find that people are pleased with the progress our country's making on lots of different fronts and are very confident that the country could make a lot more progress if the people in Washington would catch up with the rest of the country.
This is one reason why I have a Washington office, but I live in Nashville. I live in the real world, and I go visit Washington because I find that - for instance, on the immigration issue, the country is way ahead of where both parties are, way ahead of where the government is.
And it's time for the government to catch up to where the people are and to demand a comprehensive immigration policy that would secure the borders, would deal fairly and justly with the people who are here and give them an opportunity to work their way toward permanent resident status, set up a genuine guest-worker program that would allow people to be able to come in and go back home and visit and come back and take care of their families.
We have jobs that are available in this country, and we have people in other countries who want to come do them. One of the shocks that people find when they start examining this issue is that about 30 percent of the people who are here illegally really don't want to be permanent residents here. They would like to have a guest worker status where they could earn money and send it back to Mexico, for instance, and after a certain number of years, move back to Mexico and start a business, you know.
And the ones who want to stay here, if they abide by the law and they work their way off of a probationary status through paying fines and learning to read and write and speak English and want to stay here, we're lucky to have them. This country is a nation of immigrants, but more than that, we're a nation of settlers - people who came here to invest their lives in this country and to become part of the American dream. And our immigrants of all different ethnic stripes have been a tremendous contribution to this country.
I lived in England for three years when I was doing my Ph.D. at Oxford, and England's a country that most people in the world would think would be a great place to live, but it is such an incomparably boring country compared to the United States. And the reason is the rich tapestry of all of the contributions of our various immigrant groups that have come to this country that they've made to our language, to our music, to our cuisine, to our literature. Immigration has been a tremendous blessing to this country, and most Americans know that.
CONAN: We have to move on, but I did want to get to one last thought. You talked about all the things that Americans are optimistic about, the ones you meet. Give me a for-instance, a for-example.
Dr. LAND: Well, for instance, for religious people, there's a tremendous upsurge in church attendance in Evangelical and conservative churches, particularly among young people. We've seen this upsurge all across the country in Evangelical circles. We, you know, our churches are growing, our youth groups are growing, our Evangelical colleges are growing. Our Evangelical seminaries are at record enrollment.
The number of mission volunteers, both foreign and domestic, is at record numbers. And so people in the Evangelical world see a tremendous upsurge, a growing upsurge in people who are finding meaning and purpose in their lives through an Evangelical understanding of Christianity, and that encourages them for the nation's future.
CONAN: Richard Land, thanks very much. Appreciate your time.
Dr. LAND: Thank you.
CONAN: Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission in Tennessee, also host of the weekday radio program for faith and family. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
CONAN: And let's get another caller on the line. This is Kendall, Kendall with us from the Eastern shore of Maryland.
KENDALL: Hi, yes, I am a college student and a mother, and the comment that I wanted to make was that I see our country going to more of a collaborative effort, more of a willingness to compromise and to come to the realization and a - I guess an agreement that we are not the greatest country in the world, and that we need to start looking outside the box.
CONAN: And how do you see this reflected, in what people are talking about or what people are doing?
KENDALL: Well just - I listen to NPR all the time, and you've been having great shows about people pulling together, and pro-choice, pro-life coming together and trying to reach some sort of middle ground. We're hopefully seeing it to be successful in our federal government, and there's been examples of it in state governments across the United States.
I think we also see it within our communities, more farmer's markets coming out reaching into the community, forming more of a - I guess just - no, that's not a very good example.
(Soundbite of laughter)
KENDALL: But I think that it goes along with the mentality. We're starting to see just more - I'm not - I mean, we see it in our school systems with collaboration between teachers and our government. I just - I see it all over.
CONAN: Thanks very much, appreciate the phone call.
KENDALL: Thank you.
CONAN: Bye-bye. And let's see if we can squeeze one last call in. This is Tim, Tim with us from Rochester, New York.
TIM (Caller): Yeah hi, thanks Neal, great show.
CONAN: Thanks.
TIM: I just wanted to remind people of what President Kennedy said, you know, ask not what you can do for - ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country. It seems to me that community and family as a part of the community really is the cornerstone of the society. And, you know, in having gone and talked to people in various - I mean, I started when I was 5 years old going door to door talking to people about candidates and issues with my grandfather.
And I've done it off and on since then, and you get the sense that people - you get a sense that you actually come to know the neighborhood better than the people actually living there do, especially in certain types of communities -not all communities. But I definitely feel like, you know, we're losing a sense of community. We're becoming too individualistic. You know, there's a lot to be said for, you know, people - you know, God helps those who help themselves, you know.
I feel like we're moving away, we're forgetting, you know, that we need to get together to talk about things together and really come to, you know, an understanding so that we can take back our government and, you know, move our community forward in a way that best suits everyone.
CONAN: Tim, thanks very much, appreciate the time today.
TIM: Yup, bye-bye.
CONAN: Tim calling us from Rochester, New York. We heard from many of our guests and many callers. Many of the callers and many of the guests indeed feared that the state of the union was overshadowed by the War in Iraq and the bad effects it was having on America in terms of the numbers killed in Iraq and here, the numbers maimed. There was also, though, a feeling that the country was moving toward a more collaborative effort. We heard just that last phone call from Tim and that woman caller from the Eastern shore, as well. The state of the union. I'm Neal Conan, NPR News in Washington.
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