The Cuban Roots Of Rock And Roll : Alt.Latino Can you hear the cha-cha-cha in "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction"? Or the mambo in "What I'd Say"? Dive into early rock and roll's Cuban DNA.

The Cuban Roots Of Rock And Roll

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BO DIDDLEY: (Singing) Bo Diddley bought his babe a diamond ring. If that diamond ring don't shine, he going to take it to a private eye.


From NPR Music, this is ALT.LATINO. I'm Felix Contreras. As part of our continuing special programming for Latino Heritage Month, we're going to look at the heritage of rock 'n' roll. There are plenty of oral histories and scholarly works indicating the various musical traditions that went into the earliest days of rock 'n' roll. And let's give that a time stamp. When I say the early days of rock 'n' roll, I'm talking about the mid-1950s. Blues, country music, folk music, religious or spiritual music - you can hear traces of all of that, but what you also hear is Latin music, specifically music from the Spanish-speaking Caribbean.

This week, we're going to do a deep dive into that history, and I've invited some special guests to help me out. But before we get to that, let's finish listening to the world's most famous example of the Afro-Cuban clave. Don't worry, we'll explain what that is after this bit of the "Bo Diddley" song by Bo Diddley from 1955.


CONTRERAS: And we're listening to the music of Bo Diddley and a song called "Bo Diddley," a performer whose real name was Ellas McDaniel. Joining me this week are two people with whom I could talk for hours about music, but we're going to limit it today. Joining us from WBGO in Newark, multi-Grammy nominated drummer, percussionist, educator, radio host and good friend of mine Bobby Sanabria.

Bobby, welcome.

BOBBY SANABRIA: Hey, Felix, what's happening, man? Always good to hear your voice, man.

CONTRERAS: This is happening, man. Rock 'n' roll is happening.

SANABRIA: You got it.

CONTRERAS: And here in the ALT.LATINO world headquarters, we're joined in the studio by Lauren Onkey, whose official title is Senior Director of NPR Music. But she's also a walking encyclopedia of rock 'n' roll history. We've had many, many conversations. Lauren, welcome to ALT.LATINO.

LAUREN ONKEY, BYLINE: Thank you, Felix. It is so great to be with you on this mic for the first time.

CONTRERAS: OK. Bobby, in as few words as possible, explain the "Bo Diddley" rhythm and its relationship to Cuban music...

SANABRIA: (Laughter).

CONTRERAS: 'Cause it...

SANABRIA: Are you serious? In as few words as possible?

CONTRERAS: Because we could - you and I know we could do a Ph.D. dissertation on that.

SANABRIA: Of course.


SANABRIA: Well, driving the "Bo Diddley" rhythm, as many people outside of the realm of Latin music call it, is really the clave of son, which is the main rhythm. It's the cornerstone. It's the foundation of a style of Cuban music from the eastern part of Cuba called son, which is the foundation of what we call salsa. Son is like the folk song tradition. And it got morphed into what we call salsa today, which is the way we play Cuban music with a New York attitude in the city. So underneath that, what Bo Diddley is singing, you hear the drummer playing (clapping), (vocalizing). Now that rhythm, most people associate it with, obviously, Cuba. But, of course, it's our direct time to West Africa because even though the rhythm - we can count it in four beats - one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four. We can also count it in six beats - one, two, three, four, five, six, one, two, three, four, five, six, one, two, three, four, five, six, one, two, three, four, five, six - (clapping), (vocalizing). That's a bell rhythm in what we call 6/8 meter, but in 4/4 - (clapping), (vocalizing) - and then "Bo Diddley" (clapping), (vocalizing). So there it is. As we would say in the Bronx, all that and a bag of chips.


CONTRERAS: OK. What we're going to do is we're going to play some other rhythms that the 3/2 clave is part of, and you can point that out so we can have a reference back to the "Bo Diddley" rhythm. But right now, I want to play three short examples of other bands that use that beat. This is a song called "Willie And The Hand Jive" from 1958 by Johnny Otis.


JOHNNY OTIS: (Singing) I know a cat named Way-Out Willie. He got a cool little chick named Rockin' Billie. Do you walk and stroll with Susie Q? And do that crazy hand jive too?

CONTRERAS: I mean, just on its own, it's an irresistible groove, man.

ONKEY: That's right.

SANABRIA: Yeah, right.

ONKEY: And, you know, that "Bo Diddley" - "Bo Diddley" was released in 1955, so it really is there at the beginning of this rock 'n' roll explosion. And it becomes absolutely irresistible across the '50s with a number of other artists. They grab on to that beat like it's the mother lode of the music.

SANABRIA: And parenthetically, 1955 is what? - the height of the mambo era in the United States and also during the time period when transistor radios are finally coming into the hands of young, white kids down South who can now listen to Black music outside of the privy of their homes in secret and amongst themselves. As Lauren said, it starts permeating throughout the country.


SANABRIA: So there is a direct connection, obviously, with Latin music, particularly from Cuba, obviously, and, of course, through New Orleans because New Orleans is the - I always say is the northernmost Caribbean city.

ONKEY: That's right.

SANABRIA: It was - and New Orleans had this incredible triangular trade route between Mexico, New Orleans and Cuba, so it was inevitable that this would happen. And it gets transmitted - it becomes birthed, so to speak, in early rock 'n' roll.

CONTRERAS: And felt across the pond, as they say. I'm going to go to 1964 with the Rolling Stones with a cover of Buddy Holly's tune "Not Fade Away."


THE ROLLING STONES: (Singing) I'm going to tell you how it's going to be. You're going to give your love to me. I'm going to love you night and day. Well, love is love and not fade away.

ONKEY: Well, The Stones were such fans of Chess Records - Keith and Mick, Bill Wyman, Charlie Watts, Brian Jones. Chess was a kind of holy place for them. And as collectors of Chess, they would have dug into all of the Bo Diddley rhythms. So it feels like they're Bo Diddleying Buddy Holly there, I mean, you know?


SANABRIA: But I bet they didn't realize that they - that it went back farther than that, you know, to Cuba and obviously to the motherland, Africa.

CONTRERAS: OK, now I'm going to fast-forward to 1987.


GEORGE MICHAEL: (Singing) Yes, I got to have faith. Oh, I got to have faith. Because I got to have faith, faith, faith.

CONTRERAS: George Michael and "Faith."

ONKEY: Nice.



CONTRERAS: It may be the only time you'll hear George Michael on ALT.LATINO, you know?


CONTRERAS: But he's there, man. I got to give him props for that, right?

SANABRIA: But it just goes to show you how this rhythm unites us all as Americans, and Americans - and America - as I always say, people have to realize it's not just North America. It's Central and South America.


SANABRIA: So the center of America is not Butte, Montana; but Havana, Cuba; San Juan, Puerto Rico; Port-au-Prince, Haiti; Santo Domingo in the Dominican Republic and, of course, New Orleans, where it all came together.

CONTRERAS: What I want to do now is I'm going to divide the show up into rhythms, OK? We just started with the Bo Diddley rhythm. We're going to start with cha-cha-cha. And I'm going to start with a cha-cha-cha called "El Loco Cha Cha Cha" by René Touzet. This is from 1957.


SANABRIA: Well, there you go, the roots of "Louie Louie."


RICHARD BERRY: (Vocalizing). (Singing) Louie, Louie, well, well, me got to go.

CONTRERAS: So it's a perfect combination of something that was so strictly Afro Caribbean in the big-band cha-cha-cha sound and this early, early R&B rock 'n' roll.


ONKEY: And, you know, there's all of that mix at the time with Latin and African American artists through R&B bands and through vocal harmony groups that we ended up calling doo-wop later on, and this is a perfect example of that. What an incredible, incredible song.

SANABRIA: Yeah, and it's - I mean, the only difference is that the drums are providing the rhythmic propulsion as well as the bass. There's no Afro Cuban percussion, as there was in the René Touzet piece that you played. The people that heard that record were probably dancing cha-cha-cha to it because cha-cha-cha and mambo was so ubiquitous at the time. So they - kids that were dancing knew those steps, and I'm sure they were dancing that to the piece. And others would be doing as Bill Graham would say - freak dancing...


SANABRIA: ...Or the early roots of it (laughter).

CONTRERAS: OK, so that was a specific reference to "Louie Louie." Now I'm going to play a cha-cha-cha without a musical reference so you get the feel for the rhythm and the groove. This is Tito Rodríguez, "Los Marcianos Cha Cha Cha" (ph).


TITO RODRÍGUEZ: (Singing) Los marcianos llegaron ya, y llegaron bailando ricacha. Ricacha, ricacha, ricacha - así llaman en Marte al cha-cha-cha.

CONTRERAS: One, two, cha-cha-cha. One, two, cha-cha-cha.

SANABRIA: Of course, the song is talking about Martians dancing cha-cha-cha. Now, why would they even talk about that?

ONKEY: (Laughter).

SANABRIA: That was the time when science fiction movies in the '50s were happening big time and space travel was on everybody's mind, and it eventually would come to full fruition with NASA. But (laughter) music always reflects the time period that it's born in, as that did.

CONTRERAS: And Martians, obviously, are probably the hippest people in the universe.


ONKEY: I'm sure.

CONTRERAS: Apparently, apparently - OK, now we're going to - now listen to this one, OK? You'll recognize this.




CONTRERAS: One, two, cha-cha-cha.

SANABRIA: Cha-cha, yeah.

CONTRERAS: One, two, cha-cha-cha. That's probably Brian Jones hitting that cha-cha-cha on the...

SANABRIA: On the tambourine.

CONTRERAS: Cha-cha-cha on the tambourine. That's - now, that is a direct cha-cha-cha underneath this classic rock song. This - and rock - this is, like - this is 1965.


THE ROLLING STONES: (Singing) Satisfaction 'cause I try, and I try, and I try, and I try. I can't get no...

CONTRERAS: There are other examples of cha-cha-cha in rock 'n' roll, but the one I'm going to play now...


CONTRERAS: ...I've always - this one always stood out to me 'cause there's a little bit of cha-cha, but I always - the güiro, the scratcher...


CONTRERAS: ...Always stood out. And listen to that bass part. It's a tumbao.


CONTRERAS: It's a Cuban-styled tumbao.

SANABRIA: Bass line, yeah.


ONKEY: So one of the last great hits by the incredible Drifters - and really, it's coming right at the end - I think the song is '64, and it's coming at the end of the kind of high watermark of the Brill Building, where you had these songwriters and vocal groups, girl groups, and it's this really wonderful urban sound. A lot of the music from that has, I think, Latin influence. That's the perfect example, and it's just what you want to hear every summer.


ONKEY: But it also feels like a city song to me.


ONKEY: You know, I think Coney Island...


ONKEY: ...When I hear that song. I don't think the Outer Banks, right?


ONKEY: I'm going right from the city out to the beach.


ONKEY: But that big-city mixing of writers and singers that was happening - and they were so young and taking over the charts.

SANABRIA: You're playing the story of my life.


SANABRIA: It's really - I mean, the memories are flooding in, especially that song. We used to sing that doo-wop style in the projects, in the hallway, and I used to do the bass voice. (Singing) Under the boardwalk...

CONTRERAS: (Laughter).

ONKEY: There you go.

SANABRIA: (Singing) We'll be having some...

You know - I mean, but you always had to have the clapping. (Singing, clapping) Under the boardwalk, we'll be having some fun. Under the - I mean.

CONTRERAS: Probably...

SANABRIA: Felix, Felix, Felix.

CONTRERAS: (Laughter).

SANABRIA: You're killing me, man.


CONTRERAS: You're listening to ALT.LATINO. I'm Felix Contreras. I'm in the studio with Bobby Sanabria and Lauren Onkey, and we're talking about the roots of rock 'n' roll, the mambo - or the Latin roots of rock ’n’ roll, actually. I've been calling this show Rock 'N' Roll Mambo since I came up with the idea, but it really is mambo, cha-cha-cha and a bunch of other stuff. And speaking of mambo, let's play a mambo and then some of the derivatives that came after this.


CONTRERAS: This is from 1949. This is the Cuban musician Pérez Prado, who was based in Mexico - huge, huge hits on all of his stuff. This is called "Mambo No. 5" or mambo número cinco.


CONTRERAS: This is a tune that Lauren brought in.


DAVE BARTHOLOMEW: (Singing) Mambo, mambo, mambo feeling, mambo.

ONKEY: So Dave Bartholomew, the great, recently passed New Orleans musician - he and Fats Domino were writing partners. He led the band. He led Fats' band. He was recording before Fats was - just a giant trumpet player. And he's got some solo R&B hits from the '50s - "Who Drank My Beer While I Was In The Rear," for example.


ONKEY: ...Which is my personal favorite.


ONKEY: "The Monkey Speaks His Mind" (ph) - another amazing track. But, you know, you mainly knew him as a bandleader. But this track, he recorded in '56. And when I first heard it, that was a hot band. And, Bobby, you made the point about New Orleans being a Caribbean city and, you know, getting the Latin and Caribbean influence through New Orleans. You just really feel it here.

SANABRIA: And it's interesting the way they're playing the feel. It's definitely mambo, but there's obviously no congas on there. They're alluding to the percussion. There's somebody tapping out things on a clave. There's a - it sounds like there's a tambourine, but the drummer is providing everything on the cowbell, et cetera. But they're playing the rhythm with a swing-swung (ph) feel that New Orleans musicians obviously know very well. So instead of playing the bell part straight like this (imitating rhythm, clapping), they're playing (imitating rhythm, clapping) like that. So it's got that - instead of one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one and two and three and four, and one and two - that shuffle kind of thing...


SANABRIA: ...Happening underneath. But again, when one culture collides with another culture, a new culture is created. And the New Orleans - the clave is part and parcel of the history of New Orleans and the history of the music. It's there in full force, always.

ONKEY: That could be Earl Palmer.

CONTRERAS: On the drums?

SANABRIA: Probably, yeah.

ONKEY: Because it - he could - he may have moved on by that point, but that - in '56 with Dave Bartholomew, that could be Earl Palmer.

SANABRIA: Right, and Earl Palmer has said that he used to frequently go to Cuba all the time...


SANABRIA: ...To just hang out because, as he said in many interviews that I've read with him, he goes, man, I thought New Orleans was hip, but forget it.


SANABRIA: Cuba? Oh, my God, you know?

CONTRERAS: OK. So now while we're thinking about that slower mambo, something else that Lauren brought in - this is "Mambo Shevitz." I love this.

SANABRIA: Yeah (laughter).


THE CROWS: (Singing) Man, oh, man, that music, baby, dig that beat. Like a glass of wine, it's so cool and sweet. It gets my pulse a-pulsing and then my feet. Oh, it's time to do the Mambo Shevitz.

SANABRIA: And that definitely sounds like it was recorded in New York City with authentic musicians.

ONKEY: For sure, right?

SANABRIA: Yeah, the trumpets, piano, timbales, and bongó, and conga.

ONKEY: And New York is the only place you'd mix mambo and Shevitz. It's a fun, goofy little song, but it shows you how much of these rhythms were in doo-wop music. I always say that rock 'n' roll was never one thing. It was one thing in Chicago, and it was something else in New Orleans, and it was something else in New York. And you really get so much Latin music coming through the doo-wop groups in New York. And there's some great examples. And some of it is more about the musicians and not the rhythms, right? So you maybe couldn't tell the difference between an African American doo-wop group and a doo-wop group with a number of Hispanics. But it was - that's a place where so many musicians were coming into the music. So if you think about - I mean, there's fun songs - The Penguins' "Hey Senorita" - but members of Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers, you know, Herman Santiago, who claims to have written part of "Why Do Fools Fall In Love." There's a whole scene around the doo-wop stuff.

SANABRIA: Yeah, Frankie Lymon and The Teenagers - two of the members were Puerto Rican, New York-born Puerto Ricans. So - and the thing about this novelty mambo that you just played, which is hip, it shows you - it demonstrates aurally, sonically, what was happening in New York City at the time - the combination of African Americans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans and the Jewish community at the same time coming together. It's all in there in the tune. It's a novelty song. It's fun. "Mambo Shevitz" - of course, you know, that's obviously mambo in Jewish culture - Manischewitz wine, et cetera. It's a play on words on that.


SANABRIA: The singers are African American. The rhythm section is most definitely probably New York-born Puerto Ricans who, by that time, had absorbed Cuban music so well that it became part of our DNA at the time. Great, great example. Lauren, fantastic, fantastic choice.


CONTRERAS: Here's - we're going to play a fast mambo so we can get into some examples of some fast mambo and rock 'n' roll. But here's one of the best that got people out on the dance floor. This is Tito Puente from "Mambo Gozon" from 1958's "Dance Mania." So keep in mind (vocalizing). Keep in mind that little beat.

And this is another - this is a song that, the first time I heard it, I thought, wow, he's playing a mambo.


SANABRIA: Oh, yeah (laughter).

CONTRERAS: This is Ray Charles from...


CONTRERAS: ...From 1958.

SANABRIA: Yeah. Again, the height of the mambo era.



CONTRERAS: This is "What'd I Say, Pt. 1 And 2." It's just a jam from Ray Charles.

ONKEY: And again, another hybrid song because there's also so many gospel elements in "What'd I Say"...


ONKEY: ...In the call and response between Ray Charles and the Raelettes.


RAY CHARLES: (Singing) Hold on. Hey.

THE RAELETTES: (Singing) Oh.

CHARLES: (Singing) Oh.

THE RAELETTES: (Singing) Oh.

CHARLES: (Singing) Oh.

THE RAELETTES: (Singing) Oh.

CHARLES: (Singing) Oh.

THE RAELETTES: (Singing) Oh.

CHARLES: (Singing) Oh.

THE RAELETTES: (Singing) Oh.

CHARLES: (Singing) Oh.

THE RAELETTES: (Singing) Oh.

CHARLES: (Singing) Oh, one more time.

THE RAELETTES: (Singing) Just one more time.

CHARLES: (Singing) I said one more time.

CONTRERAS: Again, you're listening to ALT.LATINO. My name's Felix. We're in rock 'n' roll, mambo, cha-cha-cha stage. That's what we're doing this week, looking at the Latin roots of rock 'n' roll. OK, now I'm going to play something that's called - a beat that's called the Afro, OK? And this is an example of it - a very good example of it from 1954. This is Dizzy Gillespie and his beautiful song "Con Alma" with Machito's rhythm section laying down this (vocalizing).


CONTRERAS: Now, we're going to switch over to 1957 and Chuck Berry. This is called "Havana Moon."


CHUCK BERRY: (Singing) Havana moon.

CONTRERAS: So Chuck Berry's playing that rhythm on the guitar.

SANABRIA: Yeah, beautiful.


BERRY: (Singing) Is long the night, is quiet the dark. The boat, she late since 12 o'clock.

CONTRERAS: (Singing) Boom, boom. Boom, boom.


BERRY: (Singing) Me watch the tide easing in. Is low the moon but high the wind. Havana moon.

CONTRERAS: I first heard this tune in the '80s. Santana did a version of it. But going back to this, it's fascinating to me to hear Chuck Berry pick up this beat and reproduce it almost note for note.

SANABRIA: One of the things I have to say about Afro - Afro song - it was a outgrowth of this Neo-African consciousness movement in Cuba in the 1930s that was spearheaded by a writer named Alejo Carpentier. And so composers in Cuba started writing pieces inspired by that. And that's where you get the piece by Ernesto Lecuona, "Babalu," which was done by Desi Arnaz, that used that rhythm, if people remember or have seen the "I Love Lucy" show. That was his signature song. So once again, Africa makes its presence felt through Cuba in the pop music world - in this case, Chuck Berry. Fascinating.

CONTRERAS: And actually more than makes is presence. It brings those circles of the diaspora together.

SANABRIA: Yeah, most definitely. Yeah.


CELIA CRUZ: (Singing) Guantanemera, guajira, guantanamera. Guantanamera, guajira...

CONTRERAS: Next, we're going to play a medium-tempo beat that is often called guajira - tun-tunka-tun-tun tunka-tun-tun tunka-tun-tun tunka (ph). And this is, of course, Celia Cruz.

SANABRIA: Is that the version of the song from the "Mambo Kings" soundtrack?

CONTRERAS: It must be because it's a later version. It's not something that was...


CONTRERAS: ...Recorded earlier. The earlier version...


CONTRERAS: ...Was a lot faster.

SANABRIA: Yeah. That's - I have a revelation for you. Guess who's playing the timbales on that...

CONTRERAS: Is that you?

SANABRIA: ...And the maracas and the claves. That's me, yeah.


CONTRERAS: Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome.

SANABRIA: Yeah, because I recognized it right away. It's from the "Mambo Kings" soundtrack. Felix, you sly dog, you.

ONKEY: Yeah.


CONTRERAS: That's awesome.

ONKEY: He's trying to get on your good side, Bobby.

SANABRIA: (Laughter) Yeah.

CONTRERAS: OK. So keep in mind that piano part, and now listen to this. This is another song. This is from 1970, I believe.


SANABRIA: Oh, yeah - Eric Burdon.

ONKEY: God, the opening to that track - doesn't it just make you feel good?


SANABRIA: Yeah. Eric Burdon and War - yeah.

ONKEY: So Eric Burdon, lead singer of one of the best and most interesting British invasion bands, The Animals, I would say the one that really could take on R&B and blues and create something really kind of original in that format - by '70, he's left The Animals. He's in California and embraced a whole new thing with War. I mean, you could not have seen this coming from Eric Burdon earlier.

CONTRERAS: (Laughter).

ONKEY: And it just works...


ONKEY: ...The two of them together - stunning.

SANABRIA: Yeah. It's - that track, that - you heard that in - through all out - all of New York City in the summertime in the projects.


SANABRIA: People are playing basketball to that, playing handball to that, and people are dancing cha-cha-cha to it (laughter). I mean, it's just - that was one of those - I always call these types of tunes project music...

CONTRERAS: (Laughter).

SANABRIA: ...You know, because these are the types of tunes I heard growing up in the city. Everybody would be playing it. That would be coming out of a bodega in New York City in a speaker, and everybody's grooving to it. And, of course, it unifies African Americans and, in the case of New York City, Puerto Ricans into one unified whole.


SANABRIA: Fantastic.

ONKEY: You know, there's a lot of white blues and rock 'n' roll bands who didn't do their best work when they were just doing straight-up imitation where they seemed attracted to African American music of a previous time - right? - the passion for the blues. Let's go back. And when I hear things like "Spill The Wine" and even some of these early rock 'n' roll hits, these white artists who were really interested in some of these Latin beats - it feels very modern. It feels like...


ONKEY: ...They're going for American culture as it's existing right in that moment. They're not doing some kind of period piece. And I think it's more creative as a result.

SANABRIA: You know, "Spill The Wine" comes out when Santana's starting to really make a name for himself. He definitely was an influence on everybody at the time period. Before then, artists that were pop and rock artists and R&B artists - they rarely used any authentic percussion or percussionists that could play those rhythms on the recordings. Santana comes along. All of a sudden, you start seeing all - every rock group utilizing a percussionist and pop group and R&B group, etc. A lot of times, they hired people that didn't know how to play those instruments. But the fact that they were present, for us as Latinos, meant something to us. We - it was like an identity marker for us. In terms of what Lauren said, I would agree wholeheartedly. People are always looking - artists are always looking for new things to do. And the fact that Eric Burdon did that track, "Spill The Wine" - he must have heard some authentic Cuban music, or maybe he was influenced by Santana at the time. Who knows? The only - we - that's on you, Felix. You got to give him a phone call.



ONKEY: That's right.


CONTRERAS: We're going to wrap up this conversation because, like I said, we could go for hours. And we don't have any liquor here, so we can't go for hours...


CONTRERAS: ...Which would make it more fun.

SANABRIA: You got to do Part II with him.

ONKEY: I know. Let's work on that for next time.

CONTRERAS: Part II with drinks.


THE GRATEFUL DEAD: (Singing) I want to tell you how it's going to be.

CONTRERAS: And now let's wrap up this show where we started, with the Bo Diddley beat. And I have to fly my colors and play The Grateful Dead doing "Not Fade Away." Deadheads, this is 5/8/77 - just saying. Many thanks to Bobby Sanabria and Lauren Onkey for joining me for this deeper dive and filling in the blanks with their vast knowledge. Thank you so much, guys. And to be continued, right?


ONKEY: Yeah. I want to do a whole doo-wop show.


SANABRIA: Oh, forget it, man. Oh, I'm in there.

CONTRERAS: Again, thank you all for listening. If you want to see this playlist, check out our website, We'll have all the songs in a YouTube video playlist there. Don't forget to write to us on Facebook and Twitter. We are NPR's ALT.LATINO. I'm Felix Contreras. Again, thank you to Lauren Onkey and Bobby Sanabria for joining me. You've been listening to NPR Music's ALT.LATINO. Thank you for listening.


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