RACHEL MARTIN, HOST:
President Trump's relationship with military officials is getting more complicated. Yesterday, the highest ranking officer in the country apologized for being part of President Trump's entourage on June 1 as he walked across from the White House to a nearby church for a photo-op. This was after security forces had used chemical irritants to clear out peaceful protesters from the area. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Mark Milley walked with him and now says he shouldn't have.
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MARK MILLEY: My presence in that moment and in that environment created a perception of the military involved in domestic politics. As a commissioned, uniformed officer, it was a mistake that I have learned from.
MARTIN: General Milley made those comments in a recorded commencement address to the National Defense University yesterday. Robert Gates was the secretary of defense from 2006 to 2011. I talked with Secretary Gates yesterday, 10 days after President Trump suggested using the Insurrection Act, which would have let him use the full military, not just the National Guard, to respond to protests. I asked Secretary Gates if what he saw on June 1 was an abuse of presidential power.
ROBERT GATES: I don't know that - whether it was an abuse of presidential power. It certainly was, in my view, misguided and a bad mistake in terms of pushing away peaceful protesters. I do agree with my former colleagues' opposition to the invocation of the Insurrection Act. I think that would have been a mistake. Obviously, the president has the authority to use it, but it would have been very unwise.
MARTIN: Because of the demonstrations about racial injustice that are happening right now, the Pentagon is considering changing the name of several military bases that bear the name of Confederate generals - Fort Bragg, Fort Hood, Fort Benning, just to name a few. Do you think it's time to change those names?
GATES: I think so. I see that the president has come out against any change. I agree with Secretary of Defense Esper and the secretary of the Army, Ryan McCarthy, that we should entertain changing the names of those military facilities. It's always puzzled me we don't have a Fort Ulysses S. Grant or a military facility named for an African American Medal of Honor recipient. And I think what we see today is a movement to remove the symbols of the Confederacy that celebrate it, as opposed to understanding it and remembering it.
MARTIN: In retrospect, do you wish that you had pushed to change those names when you were secretary?
GATES: We were involved in two active wars when I was secretary of defense. I just think that - I think that there comes a moment in time when things become possible. And people ought to seize that moment when it presents itself. I think this is such a moment.
MARTIN: A man you well know, Marine Corps General and Former Secretary of Defense Jim Mattis, wrote this in a statement released last week - Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people, does not even pretend to try. Instead, he tries to divide us. Do you agree with that statement?
GATES: I think it's just a reality that this president has not seen it as one of his priorities to try and bring people together, either in general or in response to terrible events, whether it's the pandemic or the response to George Floyd's death. It's hard to disagree that this president is a divider. He's not the only one in American history. But he certainly has taken it, I think, to a level that we haven't seen in quite a long time. So I, in that respect, I agree with Jim Mattis.
MARTIN: Do you think Donald Trump has the judgment necessary to serve another four years as president?
GATES: Well, I think that there's a distinction to be made between what he says and what he does. For example, I supported his outreach to Kim Jong Un in North Korea. Everything else we'd tried for the preceding quarter of a century had not worked. I supported his challenging of the Chinese. The Chinese had gotten away with a lot of things for a lot of years. So there are important things, at least in the realm that I'm familiar with, where I have thought his initiatives at least were the right things to do. They haven't proved to be particularly successful. But at the same time, he has weakened our alliances, which I think is a critically important element of American national security. You know, there are puts and there are takes. I think that we are in a weaker position in the world today than we were three years ago.
MARTIN: I've already asked you about President Trump's suitability for the presidency. I'd like to use the moment to ask about Joe Biden. Would you publicly endorse him?
GATES: What I will say is I wrote in my book "Duty" in 2014 that I thought Joe Biden had been wrong on almost every major foreign policy issue over the preceding 40 years. I wrote on the same page, though, that I regarded Joe Biden as a man of great integrity, a very decent human being, somebody that if you had a personal problem or an issue, Joe Biden would be there to help you. So although I've got a lot of policy disagreements with the former vice president, he is a decent person.
MARTIN: Is decency of great importance, though, in this moment?
GATES: I think that what the country needs is somebody who will try to bring us together.
MARTIN: Former Secretary of Defense Robert Gates - he expands on those thoughts and many more in our conversation, more of which you will hear on Monday. His new book is titled "Exercise Of Power: American Failures, Successes, And A New Path In The Post-Cold War World."
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