ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
The national debate over police violence is one this country has had before. Six years ago after police shot and killed Michael Brown in Ferguson, Miss., President Obama convened a panel of experts and activists to rethink policing in America. They produced a report in 2015, and our next guests were the co-authors. Charles Ramsey is former chief of police in Washington, D.C., and Philadelphia, and Laurie Robinson is a former U.S. assistant attorney general.
Welcome to you both.
CHARLES RAMSEY: Thank you.
LAURIE ROBINSON: Thank you.
SHAPIRO: Your task force made more than 50 recommendations, and by one count, more than 40% of police departments around the country changed training and use of force policies after the report came out. Today, when you look at the deaths of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor and so many others, how do you evaluate the results of your work?
ROBINSON: Ari, we have 18,000 state and local police departments in this country, and they're all controlled at the local or state level. And with that system, the federal government has very limited impact directly on law enforcement in this country. But what's surprising to me is the impact that this report has had despite that decentralization. But there are big challenges. Changing culture in such a decentralized institution is very difficult. And as we've seen in recent weeks - and, in fact, over these years - changing the way business is done on the street in policing is going to be a longer range of challenge.
SHAPIRO: Chief Ramsey, how would you assess this?
RAMSEY: I think it had an impact. There's no question in my mind. Could it have been a larger impact? I think over time, it would have been. With the administration change, a different attitude toward policing emerged, and that had an impact on some departments moving forward. But the report itself is still valid, and I think those recommendations - all 59 of them - are still recommendations that are useful to departments. I only wish that we had been able to go back, revisit the document and actually add a lot more to it. And in light of what we see going on now, I think it's time to revisit policing in the 21st century and to make additional recommendations that would be useful to the field.
SHAPIRO: Could you each name one thing that you wish you could add to the report?
RAMSEY: Well, recruitment and hiring, for one thing. Recruitment and hiring practices definitely are an area that needs to be addressed.
ROBINSON: The people coming into the academy right now are the ones who will really shape policing for the 21st century. So it's really critical that if we want to change from what's been called a warrior mindset to a guardian mindset in policing, which was a fundamental underlying principle of our report, we really have to hire for that approach.
SHAPIRO: You know, I look at a city like Atlanta, which advertises its status as a model city for implementing your recommendations, and yet it was police in that department who shot and killed Rayshard Brooks. There was a history of complaints against that officer, who's now been charged with murder. The police chief has stepped down. I mean, at least in this case, it seems like implementing the recommendations wasn't enough to present this serious issue.
RAMSEY: Well, nothing's going to be 100%, and that's just a fact. You do the best you can in order to provide recommendations, but still, we're human beings like everyone else. Atlanta is a fairly large police department. You've got a lot of things going on there, and you're going to have some officers that don't always exercise the best judgment.
SHAPIRO: You suggest it's an individual problem, but other officers have called out sick as a protest against the charges against the officer who killed Rayshard Brooks. That does suggest that it's more than one or a few people.
RAMSEY: Well, first of all, I think that's a mistake for officers to do that. I mean, they swore an oath to protect the citizens of Atlanta in good times and bad. And this is a tough time, but this is a time for them to actually be out there doing their job and doing it well. But I think it's difficult to take that incident and then say that somehow, that's a much larger problem. I think that police right now across the country are pretty demoralized because of what's been going on and a lot of what's being said. I think we need to have balance and be careful so that it doesn't appear that we're demonizing all police for the actions of a few. But at the same time, we need to recognize that we do have people in our profession that should not be police officers, and we have to do everything we can to get rid of them.
SHAPIRO: You know, over the last few weeks, the conversation has shifted from police reform toward defunding the police. Do you think that's a useful conversation?
ROBINSON: I would not probably use the word defunding, but I think it opens a good conversation about what we want the criminal law and arrest to be used for.
RAMSEY: Well, for me, it depends on what they mean by defunding. When I speak to people about it, they're talking more in terms of reallocating some resources from the police to the appropriate social service agency - for an example, whether that be substance abuse counselors or mental health workers or what have you. If police are relieved of that responsibility and they transfer those resources elsewhere, I personally don't have a problem with it. However, I don't think police can pull completely back from responding to some of those calls because some of those calls are going to be somewhat dangerous. And people are going to need support.
SHAPIRO: You know, there are those who say even the conversation about reforming the police accepts that the system is reformable (ph), and then they would argue that it's not, that we need a total reimagination, an entirely new system. Chief Ramsey, are you convinced that the system is reformable?
RAMSEY: Yeah, I do. I really do. We still have crime and violence occurring in our neighborhoods every single day, and we have to deal with that. This isn't just about violence on the part of police. If there were no shootings by police officers for the entire year, you'd still have 14 to 15,000 murders committed in this country. People aren't asking for no police. They're asking for good, constitutional policing. That's what they're asking for, and that's not asking too much.
SHAPIRO: How does the current climate feel to you compared to five, six years ago, when you were writing this report? Do you see departments right now as being more or less receptive to change?
ROBINSON: I do see more receptivity particularly from police leaders around the country who are looking for ways to build bridges with communities, looking for ways to make change really institutionalized in their departments. And so I think that there is a real opportunity to move forward in progressive and good ways.
RAMSEY: I think we've seen a shift not only in police departments but in the rest of society. I mean, when you look at the diversity of the people that are protesting, when you look at what's taking place in corporate America, sports franchises - I mean, everyone seems to be paying attention to this issue. And that's what drives change. I mean, that's the beauty of what we're seeing right now. I just hope it doesn't lose momentum. But I think that police departments - certainly elected leaders - are really receptive to change right now. So I think there's a tremendous window of opportunity.
SHAPIRO: That's Charles Ramsey, former police chief in Philadelphia and Washington, D.C., and Laurie Robinson, a former U.S. assistant attorney general who's now with George Mason University. Together, they were co-authors of the 2015 report by the Obama task force on 21st century policing.
Thank you both.
ROBINSON: Thank you.
RAMSEY: Thank you.
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