FARAI CHIDEYA, host:
From NPR News, this is News & Notes. This is Farai Chideya. President Bush's former top aide Karl Rove gets a subpoena from the House Judiciary Committee, but will he actually talk? Barack Obama volunteers fresh racial incidents on the campaign trail and a new leader of the NAACP steps up to the plate. For these topics and more, we've got Kevin Merida. He's an associate editor at the Washington Post and co-author of "Supreme Discomfort The Divided Soul of Clarence Thomas." Also with us, CNN analyst and radio host, Roland Martin. He's also a special correspondent for Essence Magazine. Great to have you guys on.
Mr. ROLAND MARTIN (CNN Radio Host and Analyst, Special Correspondent, Essence Magazine): Glad to be here.
Mr. KEVIN MERIDA (Associate Editor, Washington Post, Co-Author, "Supreme Discomfort The Divided Soul of Clarence Thomas"): Thank you, Farai.
CHIDEYA: So, how has Judiciary Committee has served former Bush-aide Karl Rove with a subpoena? He is scheduled to appear on July 10th to testify on his alleged role as a key player in the dismissals of nine U.S. attorneys. Kevin, Karl Rove, has been served before. So, tell us more about what this is about and whether you think he's even going to say anything.
Mr. MERIDA: Well, you know, the Bush administration has been, you know, tried to block all efforts to have their top aides testify, citing that, you know, private conversations fall under the realm of executive privilege. And so, you know, usually, they're pretty successful. Administrations are pretty successful at that. I think that Karl Rove, for the Democrats, I mean, he's been kind of the puppet master in their minds. The key figure behind a lot of the mischief in the Bush administration and things that they're trying to get at. John Conyers is known as a very aggressive House Judiciary Committee chairman on such things. And I know he will continue to force this issue, even if they don't get him to actually testify and say anything the idea that the former top aide has been subpoenaed, and I think they believe it helps them politically.
CHIDEYA: And this latest discussion is around whether or not Karl Rove spoke of essentially neutralizing an opponent, a political opponent by dealing with charges against that person. Roland, how do you see this playing out in terms of the, you know, the questions many citizens have about whether or not government is corrupt or whether there is unjust retribution for not being on one person's side or the other?
Mr. MARTIN: Well, this is last gasp attempt by the Democrats to frankly "get" Karl Rove for a final time before President Bush leaves the White House in January 2009. And so, we have had this swirling around, even at the allegations of that Karl Rove was a mastermind behind the indictments against of a former governor in Alabama. Of course, he's been let out of prison, the judge has even said there are some issues for this prosecution. That's what this is about. I mean, and so we know politically, that the president has a prerogative to replace US attorneys. But the real issue here is to what extent did politics play role? And the problem with the administration initially say is, oh, no, everything was above board. And then of course, we found information that wasn't the case. That's what this is about. This is an effort to get Karl Rove, and so, if they can get to him anyhow, and then we also get Al Capone may have been a murderer, but they got him based on tax evasion.
CHIDEYA: Kevin, when you look this, I mean, has the ship pretty much sailed? I mean, the Bush administration is, you know, if not marching out the door, at least sort of edging towards the door. This is what's called the lame duck phase of the presidency. Is it pretty much over at this point?
Mr. MERIDA: Well yeah, it is pretty much over. You know, a lot of the top aides that were in the White House, most of them have all gone, including Karl Rove. You know, Karl Rove's out writing columns for Newsweek now. I mean, but I think that in the context of politics in this political year, I think the Democrats want to continue to remind the public of some of the abuses of the Bush administration. And this is part of this, as Roland mentioned. You know, this led to the resignation of Alberto Gonzales, his attorney general, because Democrats put so much heat on the administration, and finally they had to let Alberto Gonzales go. And so, the idea of influencing the judiciary is something that, really, most Americans would be upset about. And if they can tie that, the more they can remind people of these kind of allegations, I think they believe it helps them politically.
CHIDEYA: Let me stay with you, Kevin, and talk about an article that you actually wrote. It was a very compelling article about racial incidents that some Obama volunteers experience. Give us just one example.
Mr. MERIDA: One example was a woman who was at the phone banker in Northeastern Pennsylvania, did about 60 phone calls, and she told me that most of the calls were really depressing. A lot of racial invective on the calls. One caller, she remembers said "I'm not going to vote for Obama. Hang that darky from a tree." There was a break-in at the Vincennes, Indiana, campaign office of Obama where a plate glass window was pushed in, their American flags stolen and a number of hate messages. Now, you know, people can argue whether it's racist of not, or these are racially based, but certainly, bigotry as they mentioned that, you know, Hamas supports Obama and they used - made references to Jeremiah Wright.
There have been a number of volunteers who said that they were called, you know, the N-word, white volunteers were called N-word lovers. So, there's a pretty long dossier of this, and that - which is not to say that this is a prevalent experience or the dominant experience of Obama volunteers. But it is something that I think has been kind of under the radar, and not brought to light very much.
Mr. MARTIN: It actually is a very important story. And I think, when I've heard conservative commentators and talk show hosts, sort of dismiss this as well, you know, look, there are people like this, but it's not the majority of people. That is absolutely correct. But I think we've got to keep in mind that is this could be very well a tight election. We saw it in 2000, we saw it 2004, and when you look at voters in Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia, Kentucky, when you had 10, 12, 15, 16, 20 percent of the voters in a Democratic primary, say that race was the number one factor in how they decide to vote, that could make a difference. When you have a state where two, three, four, five million people vote, OK, in a Democratic primary, let's just say it's four million people.
And let's say, just 10 percent of the people say race, the race of the candidate was the number one factor, that is 200,000 votes. And so, there were number of states that Bush won that I think was like 10 states by less than 200,000 votes. And so, I think people should not dismiss this as well, you know, that's fine. No. There are people sitting here and say that I bet that we should one America, and we should not be calling ourselves African-American, Irish-American, whatever the case may be. And we should be examining the racial attitudes that persist because that is a significant problem, even at 10 or 20 percent.
CHIDEYA: Quickly, both of you, Kevin first. Do you think the Obama campaign would rather keep these things on the hush because it undermines this idea that a black man is electable?
Mr. MERIDA: Well, I think there is no question about that. You know, I've got several calls in advance of the story's publication with concerns about it and wanted to make sure it was put in proper context, et cetera. I think that, you know, Obama campaign has gone through the past several months where there has been a very much the race of the candidate has been brought to light, and there's been a racial focus because of the remarks of Jeremiah Wright, and they've been dealing with that.
And I think that they don't want it to become the focus, of his campaign. So, they did not even want the incident in Vincennes, Indiana reported. In fact, they told the volunteer there, to just clean up the hate messages, and not to make a big thing of it.
CHIDEYA: Roland, just quickly on this, because I want to get your feedback on the NAACP as well.
Mr. MARTIN: Sure, bottom line of this particular topic, the Obama campaign, sure they wanted the focus to be on this. In fact, Obama has stated repeatedly that if he is not elected, it won't be because of his race, but because the American people did not buy into his policies and positions. They want the focus to be on his particular points, and not his race.
But the bottom line is, he's going to be there. Hillary Clinton had to deal with the issue of sexism on the campaign trail. We had to accept the reality there, race is there. If we wish we to be fighting against it, versus, by saying it's really no big deal.
CHIDEYA: I want to move on, we just have a couple of minutes left for the NAACP question. Thirty-five-year-old Benjamin Jealous was elected last Saturday, by a vote of 34 to 21. Now, Roland, the NAACP was without a leader for over a year. Do you think that this was a controversial - it was a split vote, but is it a controversial selection?
Mr. MARTIN: Well, it is controversial in the sense that, according to my sources on the board, Reverend Frederick Haynes out of Dallas' Friendship-West Baptist Church, was the first choice of the search committee, that - Jealous was the only finalist who went before the board. The board met for eight hours, and did not vote on this until almost three o'clock in the morning.
People wanted all three finalists, Alvin Brown, a former Clinton official, was also one of the finalists. Although my sources say that Julian Bond, the board chairman, really pushed for Jealous to only be the only one. And so you have some issues there. I mean, obviously a 34-21 vote, I mean, look, you would have won a unanimous selection, or even a much broader one than that.
It does say that some people are unsettled with Jealous, because he served in various capacities, different places for three years at a time. The bottom line is, they need consistency. They need leadership. CHIDEYA: Sorry. Mr. MARTIN: Now, that is the issue.
CHIDEYA: All right, Kevin, really quickly. Can the NAACP...
Mr. MERIDA: I had lunch...
CHIDEYA: Please.
Mr. MERIDA: Yeah, I was going to say, I had lunch with Ben Jealous, ironically right before Super Tuesday, and he was very much involved in voter mobilization, with a group called Power Pack(ph), that's based in mobilizing black voters based in San Francisco. And they mobilized voters across the South in support of Obama. So, he comes from an activist political background and that, I think, some people see as a refreshing change.
CHIDEYA: All right, well, Kevin and Roland, always great to talk to you. Thanks.
Mr. MARTIN: Thanks a bunch.
Mr. MERIDA: Thank you.
CHIDEYA: Kevin Merida is an associate editor of the Washington Post, and co-author of "Supreme Discomfort: the Divided Soul of Clarence Thomas." He joined me from the studios at the Washington Post. And Roland Martin is a CNN analyst, and host of the "Roland S. Martin Show" on WVON-AM in Chicago.
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