MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Today the governor and lieutenant governor of Wisconsin asked President Trump to stay away from their state. So did the mayor of Kenosha, Wis., who says the city needs time to heal.
SACHA PFEIFFER, HOST:
But the president showed up anyway. Trump's trip comes after days of unrest following the police shooting of a Black man, Jacob Blake, that left him hospitalized. It also comes after a white 17-year-old, Kyle Rittenhouse, was charged with six criminal counts, including first-degree intentional homicide. Wisconsin Lt. Gov. Mandela Barnes, a Democrat, joins us now.
Welcome to the program.
MANDELA BARNES: Hey. Thank you for having me today.
PFEIFFER: We're glad to have you. Gov. Tony Evers sent a letter asking President Trump not to visit Kenosha. You've called for him to stay away as well. Do you see any potential benefit to having him there, maybe a chance to meet and talk to him in a productive way?
BARNES: No, I do not because if - a real leader would have proven that already. He would have given words to help console the people of this community, the people of this state and the people of this nation because what happened in Kenosha is something that happens all too often in this country. And the president has offered no sort of resolve. You can look at the president's invective. You can look at the RNC, which tried to capitalize on such situations, which tried to politicize people who are crying out, who are stepping up, marching and demanding racial justice. And Donald Trump doesn't want to hear that. He is going to use every opportunity that he can to divide the people of this state as this is a critical state for his reelection. And it's unfortunate because, you know, these are real lives that we're talking about.
PFEIFFER: Gov. Evers called for a special session of the legislature on Monday to address police reform, but Republicans didn't show up, and that session lasted 30 seconds. To get any legislation through, you need Republican support. Do you have a plan for how to do that?
BARNES: Well, it's unfortunate that, you know, we get asked what's our plan when the legislature - when the Republicans in the legislature don't get asked why they continue to ignore people. It took them forever to respond to COVID-19. They haven't responded to the health care crisis. They haven't responded to the dairy crisis that our family farmers are dealing with in this country. They haven't responded to gun violence prevention. They haven't responded to the climate crisis. Every issue, they continue to fail and ignore the people of this state.
PFEIFFER: Kenosha is the latest city to deal with protests and, sometimes, counter-protests that have turned violent. Gov. Evers sent in the National Guard as the protests were heating up, and some protesters said that having the Guard there made unrest worse. Do you think the governor made the right decision by sending in the Guard?
BARNES: So the governor sent in the Guard to aid with controlling fires that were set. You know, this is all in the interest of safety because fires can get out of control. A fire touches the wrong thing, you could have explosions. Then you can potentially have more loss of life. That was the purpose of the National Guard.
I think what protesters were experiencing was a heightened response from law enforcement. And the press conference that happened shortly after the young man who traveled to Wisconsin from Illinois to kill two people in our streets - the response was, well, maybe if people weren't out past curfew - ignoring the fact that, yeah, the shooter was also out past curfew. So to assign blame to the victims, that shows where we are in terms of thought with some of the local law enforcement that's on the ground. And this is the reform and accountability that we're talking about.
PFEIFFER: Whatever the reason the Guard was there, even if it was just to try to put out or prevent fires, it ends up being a law enforcement presence, the presence of authorities. And this is the dilemma, I think, for city and state leaders. How do you control what could become violent unrest without making people feel that the feds are storming in or the Guard is storming in? That's a really hard dilemma. Have you figured out the right balance of that?
BARNES: It's something - it's a learning process, if I'm going to be completely honest. And I've always promoted the fact that law enforcement should continuously work to de-escalate situations, whether it is a more interpersonal interaction like the one with Jacob Blake and the three officers or whether we're talking larger-scale events like protests and demonstrations. I think that you often see peaceful protest turned the other way when there is a heightened presence of what is perceived as authority. So, yeah, I do think there is a problem because when people are protesting police - you know, aggression with police, overly aggressive police - the response cannot be overly aggressive law enforcement.
PFEIFFER: How to deal with violent unrest is becoming a major issue in the presidential campaign, and many Democrats who do not support President Trump worry that violent unrest helps him, that it lets him say the Democrats are weak on crime. What's your level of concern that you may be inadvertently helping President Trump's reelection efforts in that way?
BARNES: You know, I think that it's important for people to realize that, again, the people who were killed in Kenosha were protesters. They were killed by people who felt that they had a responsibility to help things, to help matters, to assist. Now, like you mentioned, law enforcement's already here. National Guard's already here. They didn't need help. Yet these people are free to just walk the streets with long rifles, intimidating people. I think that is the important thing that people need to realize, and I hope that folks do understand that Republicans continue to enable this sort of behavior that actually leaves people dead.
PFEIFFER: That's Wisconsin Lt. Gov. Mandela Barnes.
Thank you for coming on the program.
BARNES: Thank you for having me.
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