CHERYL CORLEY, host:
This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Cheryl Corley.
On today's Roundtable, New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg may be eyeing an independent bid for the presidency; and the NYPD reportedly spied on potential protesters before the 2004 Republican National Committee Convention got underway.
Joining us on our panel are Michael Meyers, executive director of the New York Civil Rights Coalition; Chicago Sun-Times columnist Laura Washington; and Robert George, editorial writer at the New York Post.
Hi, everybody, thanks for joining us.
Mr. ROBERT GEORGE (Editorial Writer, New York Post): Hello.
Ms. LAURA WASHINGTON (Chicago Sun-Times Columnist): Hi, Cheryl.
Mr. MICHAEL MEYERS (Executive Director, New York Civil Rights Coalition): Hi.
CORLEY: Well, let's start with the political news. There seems to be a lot of buzz that New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg may be biding his time and the once-Democrat-turned-Republican billionaire may throw his hat in the ring for president as an independent.
He's publicly denied interest but some believe he's dropping hints, talking with potential supporters, and reportedly he told some confidants that he won't decide until early next year. That's after the nominees of the main parties are decided. So if it's a yes, we might see Michael Bloomberg pouring in about a half billion dollars on a long shot bid as an independent. What do you folks think? How likely is there to be a Bloomberg candidacy?
Mr. MEYERS: Well, this is Michael Meyers. I must say that here I was thinking that Mayor Bloomberg did not have a sense of humor. Obviously he does. There is a big difference between having the presidency on your mind or within your scope and having the presidency within your grasp.
The chances of an independent who is a registered Republican, a former New York Democrat, becoming president is slim to nil. He doesn't even have, like Perot had, a third party. Now, Nelson Rockefeller discovered that you can't buy the presidency. You know, of course, Bloomberg has more money than Rockefeller. But you still can't buy the presidency.
And if you look at Bloomberg's record in New York, it is an undistinguished record. He's been given a pass by our media. Some of his friends who are also billionaires are gushing media and advocates he's brought in to - like Al Sharpton, and he tapped the president of the New York Urban League to become a deputy mayor.
But I don't buy it. He said he wanted to be evaluated for re-election as mayor on the basis of school reform. Well, the schools are still lousy. Police/community relations are lousy.
Mr. GEORGE: Well, first of all, well, the police/community relations are maybe not A-plus but they are certainly, certainly much better than when his predecessor...
Mr. MEYERS: No, they're not.
Mr. GEORGE: They are certainly much better than his predecessor, Rudy Giuliani, who admittedly obviously got the city in the direction of the crime control that it is today. However, I would say that while it's true - it's true Bloomberg would not, does not have a third party, he basically - the hint he's talking about is spending a heck of a lot more money than Ross Perot. And it is true that...
Mr. MEYERS: So what?
Mr. GEORGE: ...no such party, no third party candidate, except for when the Republicans, when the Whigs died and Republicans came in, has actually won the presidency.
However, I would say that Bloomberg - if he really wants to commit the resources, he's going to basically look at, he's going to look at the blue states and he's going to basically say those are - that's where he is - that's where it's easiest for him to get out his message, to get - to pour lots and lots of money in there and challenge a Democratic candidate who may not be the most popular, and then start picking off select red states.
It's very, very unlikely that he would ever become president, but it's not completely out of the question.
CORLEY: Well, you're talk...
Ms. WASHINGTON: I think...
CORLEY: Go ahead, Laura. Jump in.
Ms. WASHINGTON: I think it is pretty unlikely that he could become president, but he could have a tremendous impact on the presidential race for obvious reasons. I mean he - a candidacy by Michael Bloomberg should be striking fear in the hearts of both sides of the political fence. Because he will have all that money, more money, he'll be able to outspend both the Democrats and the Republicans, outspend them in a way that also creates a huge aura of independence around him, because it's going to be his money. He's not going to be captive to special interests. He's not going to owe anybody anything, and he's going to be able to blanket the airwaves with feel-good ads about his candidacy.
Yes, he's flawed. Yes, he has a flawed record, but there's not a candidate in this race who's going to have a - who's not going to have a flawed record. He can shift votes - make a difference as Perot and Nader both did in their candidacies. He can make a difference in the outcome of this election.
Mr. MEYERS: Laura, Laura.
CORLEY: Both have got...
Mr. MEYERS: If I were Hillary Clinton...
CORLEY: Hold on, hold on.
Mr. MEYERS: If I were Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama or Rudy Giuliani and I'm sitting in my living room, I'd be laughing right now. This is a joke. Bloomberg is not going to run for president. It's all in his or his friends' heads or the big media friends that he has that...
Ms. WASHINGTON: But if he does, Mike...
Mr. MEYERS: ...gushing about his accomplishments in New York. And there is no accomplishment in New York.
Ms. WASHINGTON: There's a difference between whether or not you think he has a good record and whether or not he's going to run, or whether or not he is a viable candidate.
Mr. GEORGE: Exactly.
Ms. WASHINGTON: I think he's a very viable candidate, whether or not the record is strong. Like I said, talk to Giuliani...
CORLEY: Let's let Robert George get in here.
Mr. GEORGE: Let's keep in mind what the playing field looks like. With all of these states having moved up their primaries, it's quite likely that the Democrat and Republican nominee will both be selected for all intents and purposes by February or early March. That gives a long, long time for a third party person to jump in if they so choose because the populace may be sick of the party or nominees by then.
CORLEY: All right, well, let's move along. Let's move along. Hold on.
Mr. MEYERS: He's a Republican, period.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. GEORGE: He's an independent. He is an independent.
Mr. MEYERS: He is not independent. He's a multi-billionaire.
Mr. GEORGE: He would never get the Republican...
Mr. MEYERS: And you're gushing about him. Come on.
CORLEY: Robert and Michael, Robert and Michael, I need to move along.
Mr. GEORGE: Okay, let's move along.
CORLEY: All right, other political news. The New York Times reports that prior to the 2004 Republican National Convention, undercover NYPD officers posed as activists and advocates, visiting political events in at least 15 states in order to keep tabs on potential demonstrators.
The officers were supposedly part of what's being called an RNC Intelligence Squad whose job was to expose potential threats. The New York Civil Liberties Union says this was plain and simple spying, while the NYPD says it was all about keeping the city safe. So who's right?
Mr. MEYERS: Well, this is what I meant. This is Michael Meyers again. This is what I meant by bad, very bad police/community relations. Here you have, I think, the police law enforcement community not only out of balance but out of control.
You have spying on political protestors, people who are not suspected of crime. They are just political protestors. You have cops posing as activists, attending our meetings, undercover. You have cops undercover going to our nightclubs. You have law - you have a law that requires arraignment of suspects within 24 hours which goes ignored. The New York Civil Liberties Union just today issued a report that indicates people are being held up to 50 hours before seeing a judge.
You have stops and frisks - 500,000 plus - mostly of black and Hispanic youth that went unreported, notwithstanding a law that requires NYPD to report to the city council, but they don't report. The bigger picture is, where is this all going? And you know, NYPD doesn't operate by itself. There's a coordination, obviously, with other law enforcement agencies, such as the FBI.
All of these latest revelations about police misconduct come with a New York city council that has fallen silent, a city council that recently adopted a symbolic ban on the uses of the N-word as they allow the NYPD to treat blacks and Hispanics and political protestors like niggers. I'm sick of it.
CORLEY: Well, well, well...
Mr. GEORGE: Well, I didn't...
CORLEY: Let me, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. And I think we say the N-word here. But the undercover surveillance of political groups, isn't that generally legal if it's done under certain guidelines?
Mr. GEORGE: Well, and the fact, and the fact is what's, what Michael neglected to say is that before the convention, in 2003, the NYPD went to a judge and asked for relief under what was called the Handschu Agreement about - which governs the police investigating and overseeing third party organizations. And the judge, the judge granted them that, and that - it was under those rules that they were operating.
Well, keep in mind what was going on here. The Republican Convention was the biggest event to come to New York City after 2001. So it is quite understandable that the NYPD would think that a political convention where the president of the United States is going to be attending would be a likely target for terrorists. And so they started to - they started an observation, an observation program of some of these groups. Yes, it's a little bit discomforting, but they didn't break any laws. In fact, they specifically went to a judge...
Mr. MEYERS: How do you know?
Mr. GEORGE: ...telling them that they wanted to do this.
Ms. WASHINGTON: Cheryl, you asked a question earlier, is this intelligence gathering or is it spying?
CORLEY: Right.
Ms. WASHINGTON: I think it's both. Where these - the law enforcement agencies which have a long and time-honored tradition of doing this kind of activity. Cheryl, you know from - being from Chicago, about the Red Squad...
CORLEY: Yes.
Ms. WASHINGTON: ...from the '60s and '70s, a Chicago Police Department unit within the department that was assigned to keep track of quote/unquote "radicals." Collected volumes of information, they had files on practically anybody that they considered left in the city. And a lot of that activity was found to be illegal precisely because it was being used, the information, the intelligence was being used against folks. It was being used to deprive people of access to opportunities, to jobs, to information, and that is where you cross the line.
And my concern about what we're seeing in New York more recently is how is that information, how is all of that data that they had collected supposedly to enforce that law during the convention, being used long after the convention? Those folks that they've collected that data on all have files now, that information is in the hands of the police department and probably the law enforcement agencies like the FBI as well. And how are they using it?
CORLEY: Let me ask you this, let me ask you this, do any of you think that there can ever be this kind of balance between safety and surveillance?
Mr. MEYERS: Of course there's a balance between safety and surveillance. We play balance all day long, every day, but that's not the issue. The issue is whether or not NYPD has violated citizens' rights, people's rights to peaceably assemble, to meet in their own meetings without being spied on, without - and in a framework against being - in a framework that the Handschu Agreement, which Robert talks about, which I don't have time to rebut, but he's wrong about that.
The Handschu Agreement did not allow police to spy on American citizens. The Handschu Agreement did not allow NYPD officers to go out of state and to go and investigate undercover peaceful activity. They didn't do that. But my point is that since that time, the Handschu Agreement has been strengthened because NYPD, the judges have recognized, have been out of bounds. They have been violating laws. And for Robert just to make the assertion that they haven't violated laws, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
CORLEY: Robert, I'm not going to...
Mr. MEYERS: he doesn't know how many laws have been violated.
CORLEY: Robert, I'm not going to give you a chance to answer that because I want to move to one last topic...
Mr. GEORGE: Michael, (unintelligible) proves himself wrong again so.
CORLEY: You got it in, okay. Florida lawmakers want to make it easier for people who protested against segregation to clear up any criminal records they might have as a result of their political actions during the civil rights movement.
Proposed legislation would speed up the application process to get convictions erased. It also urges the governor and the clemency board to grant pardons to people who got arrested protesting racial injustice.
Now, the state senator behind this proposal says fellow lawmakers noticed other states apologizing for racial discrimination and this would be Florida's apology. So what do you think about this as an apology?
Mr. GEORGE: I think it's a good idea. Rather than some of these rather silly symbolic apologies, I think it's actually somewhat meaningful and can improve the lives of people who were actually - who were affected during segregation period. So I think it's a very good idea.
Mr. MEYERS: Well, I would say - this is Michael Meyers - I would say that, you know, the notion of civil disobedience is that we willingly break civil laws that we believe are morally wrong and we accept our punishment for that. People who broke the segregation laws accepted their punishment. They were put into prison many times. But if there is going to be an apology, if there's going to be justice, social justice, yeah, here I would agree for the first time probably with Robert George.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. MEYERS: That - yeah, I would not...
Mr. GEORGE: Kumbaya.
Mr. MEYERS: I don't like symbolic apologies. This is a real apology for unlawful, improper laws, and yes...
Mr. GEORGE: People who broke...
Mr. MEYERS: ...immoral laws. People who broke those laws should be pardoned. They should be excused. Their records should be expunged as if they never were convicted of a crime.
Ms. WASHINGTON: Especially when you consider that, as I understand it, most of the folks that were participating in these activities and were told at the time that their records would - that they would - that this kind of conviction would not be on their record, so they lived their lives under the impression that they have a clean record until something comes up where they have to apply for a job or what have you.
And when you compare what these people did, yes, the act of civil disobedience, as Michael says, is somebody you do voluntarily that you do knowingly, but it's a very honorable act, I think, you know, in our history in terms of fighting injustice. If you're going to expunge the records of folks who have done criminal acts far worse in some cases and have done these because of a variety of reasons throughout the states, you can certainly do the honor of giving these people a break. And I think it goes way beyond symbolism.
CORLEY: I only have a couple of minutes left. We had black leaders from religious, media, civil rights and political groups all assembled over the weekend at a National AIDS Strategic Planning Commission, an event convened by the Black AIDS Institute and a number of other groups.
The groups had a goal to stop the disease in the black community in five years. The coalition will unveil its national plan later in June - the NAACP, National Urban League, Rainbow/PUSH just a few of the participants in this crusade. How significant is it that we have all of these black organizations coming together to pledge to hammer out a national plan to stop AIDS?
Mr. GEORGE: Oh, hey...
Mr. MEYERS: Well, it's just...
Mr. GEORGE: ...it's only what, 26, 27 years later? I mean, what took these organizations so long is my question.
Mr. MEYERS: Well, the nature of the crisis whatever they - however it come to the crisis, even if it's this late, it's time for people to be involved. And HIV, I must remind everybody, is a virus. It's not confined to the black community. The black community, quote-unquote, is disproportionately being infected and impacted by HIV.
My answer is, you have to have vats of condoms in schools, courthouses, churches, community centers, prisons. Wherever teenagers and adults gather there ought to be condoms. There ought to be clearly written, plainspoken pamphlets using words that people understand about safer sex. There's no such thing as safe sex anymore, only dirty sex. If you're having sex, it's dirty, if you're doing it right. But you have to have safer sex practices, and you have to have information about the perils of dirty needles.
CORLEY: Laura, what do you think about this, this...
Ms. WASHINGTON: A major - I think I agree that this is long overdue, it's about time. But I think a major plank of this effort has got to be overcoming the stigma that's associated with AIDS. As Michael says, you know, sex is perceived as dirty if it's - especially if it's done right. You're talking about sex. You're talking about the homophobia that's still rampant in our community. You're talking about ignorance about the disease. And that has got to be a major focus in terms of getting people to understand what this really means. One of the reasons it's so rampant is because there is so much bad information out there about it.
Mr. GEORGE: And I think it's important - it's definitely important, I think, to get the churches involved in this...
CORLEY: Mm-hmm. Last word.
Mr. GEORGE: ...I don't necessarily, I don't think it's necessarily appropriate to be putting, say, condoms in churches. I mean, you need - I don't think there's anything wrong with having a moral component within this, but putting the moral and the health aspect together while respecting the appropriate bounds of each side.
CORLEY: All right, thank you so much...
Mr. MEYERS: Condoms belong in churches. Condoms belong in churches.
CORLEY: Thank you so much. From our New York bureau, Michael Meyers, executive director of the New York Civil Rights Coalition, Robert George, editorial writer at the New York Post, and Laura Washington, Chicago Sun Times columnist. She joined us from our Chicago bureau.
Mr. MEYERS: Thank you very much, Cheryl.
Mr. GEORGE: Thanks, Cheryl.
CORLEY: Thank you.
Ms. WASHINGTON: Thank you, Cheryl.
CORLEY: Next on NEWS & NOTES we go to church in the last town singer James Brown, the Godfather, called home. And two authors take on the image of black men in their new book.
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