MICHEL MARTIN, host:
I'm Michel Martin, and this is Tell Me More from NPR News. Coming up, a Christian, a Muslim, and a Jew contemplate life's most difficult questions as they worship on the same street only blocks apart in the nation's capital. It's our weekly look inside the pages of the Washington Post magazine, and that's in just a few minutes. But first, our take on the first presidential debate. The voters finally got to see the presidential candidates square off Friday night at the University of Mississippi after days of high drama over whether the debate would even take place.
John McCain said he might not come because of uncertainty over the economy, and the need to come to agreement over the bailout plan. But, he was there, along with Barack Obama of course, and the rest, as they say, is history. But, what exactly will the history books say? We decided to get that first draft from Pamela Gentry, Washington Bureau Chief and Senior Political Producer for BET Networks. Freelancer reporter Luis Clemens who plays - pays close attention to Latino politics, and Tyler Clemons, editor-in-chief of the Daily Mississippian. It's the student newspaper at Ole Miss. And, I thank you all so much for joining us.
Mr. LUIS CLEMENS (Freelance Reporter, Latino Politics): Hi, Michel.
Ms. PAMELA J. GENTRY (Washington Bureau Chief and Senior Political Producer, BET Networks): Thank you.
Mr. TYLER CLEMONS (Editor-in chief, Daily Mississippian): Thank you for joining me or for having me.
MARTIN: OK. Well, Tyler, I'm going to go to you first because this must have been a pretty intense week for you. How much was the campus and community of the University of Mississippi looking forward to the debate and how upset were you when you heard it might not happen?
Mr. CLEMONS: Oh, we've been looking forward to this for an extremely long time. We felt like that this was not just the progress of the results of several months, but the result of years of progress on our part. And so, our community and our university were just extremely proud and extremely excited. I told some people at the beginning of the week that I hadn't been that excited since I went to Disneyland when I was four years old. And I think that was a general sentiment on campus, there was a definite buzz. There was a definite feeling in the air. And then, when Senator McCain made his announcement that he was considering not coming around 2 p.m. on Wednesday, we were just floored.
The entire campus just couldn't believe it. And in my newsroom - I was actually sitting in the conference room eating Mexican food when my photo editor ran in and told me McCain's trying to not come. And we just - we stood staring at the TV for about 15 minutes just with our mouths hanging open and then we sprang into action. So, we're so glad that he did wind up coming and we did have the debate.
MARTIN: I bet you were. So just briefly, how do you think it went?
Mr. CLEMONS: I think it was absolutely incredible. I think that both candidates did a stellar job and I think that the real winner that night, as our chancellor said numerous times, is - that was the University of Mississippi and the American people. I think it was just an amazing experience.
MARTIN: OK, well, Pamela Gentry, let's hear from you. What do you think each candidate had to accomplish during the debate? And how do you think they did?
Ms. GENTRY: Well, I think that McCain actually had to accomplish getting over the fact that he said he wasn't going to come and then he showed up. And I think, he had to do his performance - you know, do the debate and let people know that OK, please try and forget I said that.
MARTIN: That he wasn't trying to duck it.
Ms. GENTRY: That he wasn't trying to duck it. So I think that's what he accomplished. And I think Senator Barack Obama went toe to toe in the sense that he finally answered the experience question. He did not look inexperienced or look as if he was at a disadvantage to become the president of the United States. And I think that's what they both wanted to accomplish.
MARTIN: Luis, and I now want to point out that you and Tyler are not related. So...
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. CLEMENS: That we know of...
MARTIN: That you know of, of course, this being America - it could be. But what's your take on the same question? What do you think they had to accomplish? How do you think they did?
Mr. CLEMENS: I think the American public was served, I think Tyler is correct in that sense because there were discussions about Georgia, about Iran, about Iraq that generally don't occur in primetime. And in that sense, they met the objectives of the debate. In terms of setting themselves apart- well, they came off as muddling a lot answers of not coming out firmly and answering specifically questions about the economic crisis.
MARTIN: Really? You don't think that they sharpened their differences, you don't take or is it that you think, that they just - each of you didn't give a clear - they didn't give you a clear sense of what they would do? Because I thought they were pretty effective and at least setting out differences on economic policy.
Mr. CLEMENS: Very definitely in terms of economic policy and very definitely in terms of foreign policy but almost more in terms of personality. Almost more in terms of giving you a sense of what kind of person they would be in office, in that sense, yes.
MARTIN: OK. I want to talk a little bit more about that because as - has been certainly widely reported, both candidates agree that they wanted the first debate to be about foreign policy. But given the circumstances, they really couldn't help but talk about it, so the economic issues. And I want to hear, I want to play a couple of clips on how I think they kind of honed in on their differences. Let's play them back to back. We're going to hear first from Senator McCain and then from Senator Obama.
Senator JOHN MCCAIN (Republican, Arizona, Presidential Candidate): Well, the first thing we have to do is get spending under control in Washington. It's completely out of control. It's gone. We have now presided over the largest increase in the size of government since the great society.
Senator BARACK OBAMA (Democratic, Illinois, Presidential Candidate): Earmarks account for $18 billion in last year's budget. Senator McCain is proposing, and this is a fundamental difference between us, $300 billion in tax cuts, to some of the wealthiest corporations and individuals in the country. $300 billion. Now, $18 billion is important, $300 billion is really important.
MARTIN: Pam Gentry, is that a fundamental difference between them? And how important do you think that is? You think people got that message?
Ms. GENTRY: Yeah. I think people got the message by him using the numbers. But I think his goal was to say that I'm still looking out for the middle class and the average American. And I'm not looking out for big business and you know, understanding that if your tax dollars - or if you're going to be taxed and where the money is going to go. And I think, that was a very visual to give those kind of dollars signals out to the American people because you know, a lot of the stuff we talk about all the time is such inside baseball. It's hard to break it down so someone at home. So, when you say 18 compare to 300 you get their attention.
MARTIN: Luis, what do you think?
Mr. CLEMENS: That's $282 billion worth of difference that's a lot of money. I mean, it's not enough to bail out Wall Street but nonetheless it's a lot of money.
MARTIN: Do you think that one of the things that strikes me, it actually - let me just pause - just to say, if you're just joining us, you're listening to Tell Me More from NPR News. We're talking about the first presidential debate with Tyler Clemons. He's the editor-in-chief of the Daily Mississippian at the University of Mississippi which hosted the debate Friday night. We're talking with political analyst Luis Clemens, and with Pamela Gentry, she's the Washington Bureau Chief and Senior Political Producer for BET.
Luis, I'm curious about this. Because one of the things that tends to distinguish black and Latino voters is that they tend to vote the economic interests of the least economically successful of their groups regardless of their own economic standing, which is to say that middle class, African-Americans and middle class Latinos tend to vote for the poor as it were. And I'm wondering if - so if you assume that their is sort of organically gravitating toward Obama for that , for that reason - does highlighting this difference make any difference for the people who haven't already made that choice? Who aren't already there - for undecideds for example.
Mr. CLEMENS: I think it again, in terms of impressions it's important. Obama tried to project an image of someone who's interested in using government to right wrongs and correct imbalances. McCain clearly insisted spending should be tightly controlled and the market should sort itself out. Except when $700 billion is needed all of a sudden.
MARTIN: OK. One of the other issues, Tyler Clemons? One of the issues I think that the two sides were trying to - elucidate is this issue particularly on John McCain side - is who's ready versus who isn't ready? Now, I watched the debate with a group of graduate students in international affairs at Johns Hopkins. How did this issue play with the students where you were?
Mr. CLEMONS: Well, I think - I was actually in the hall, Michel. And I thought that Senator McCain did a very, very good job of portraying this sort of grandfather figure. He threw out a lot of names of diplomats or presidents of foreign countries, a long time ago, that I had no idea who he was talking about, and I'm a history major. So I think that it gave him a lot of credibility and it made him look like he had a lot of experience.
And he kind of came across as you know - I've been around for awhile. I know how to get this country through - through a crisis. But I think that Pam was also right in that Senator Obama didn't back down either. I mean, he was very knowledgeable about Iraq and Afghanistan. He was very knowledgeable about pretty much everything foreign policy-wise that he talked about. So, I think on experience - it definitely played a role. I think that Senator McCain might have come out a little bit on the edge at least from I was sitting.
MARTIN: OK. Pam, what do you think? I want to hear from each of you on this? What do you think?
Ms. GENTRY: Well, I think the grandfather figure is something that would probably - you know, him saying he had a grandfather image was not something Senator McCain would have been happy to hear from a collegiate campus where he's hoping to lure younger voters eventually.
MARTIN: Well, I don't know. It depends if the argument is about who's going to take care of us.
Ms. GENTRY: Right.
MARTIN: Who's in the better position to protect us? If that's your orientation that might be helpful.
Ms. GENTRY: That might be helpful. But, I think that one of the things that Senator McCain's campaign has worked diligently at doing is making him representative - making him a warmer and fuzzier figure to women and to younger voters because that appears to be the goal that he has between himself and Senator Obama. So that would be my...
MARTIN: Luis, what do you think?
Mr. CLEMENS: I think they restated known differences. There was very little that was new. Other than muddled - as I said before, I would say, there's very little that was unexpected. They restated differences that they'd already talked about in terms of Iraq, in terms of Iran, in terms of Russia. In that sense, they really - they really didn't break new grounds.
MARTIN: Well, I - OK, Pam.
Ms. GENTRY: I was just going to say there was one moment in the debate though that I haven't heard a lot to talk about. And I think it was a change in the tenure of the two men. And that was the bracelet incident. Because, I felt that Senator John McCain came very prepared to use that as sort of not a gotcha moment, but a moment that personalized his relationship with how he was- he wanted to handle the war Iraq. And he used the bracelet, you know, the story of the family who had given him the bracelet and said, please don't - you know, don't lose in essence. And that when Senator Barack Obama came back - with, I have a bracelet as well, and then gave his story - I felt that there was just a little bit of change in the body language, and the position on Senator John McCain and Senator Barack Obama. I think that gottcha moment went back and forth
MARTIN: It took - you think it took the power out of the moment for John McCain?
Ms. GENRTY: I think it did.
MARTIN: Tyler, what was that like in the hall? Do you remember that moment? What was it like there?
Mr. CLEMONS: I remember it, and I remember thinking that it was definitely a pivotal moment of the debate. What it did for me was it just really highlighted the fundamental difference in perspective between Senator McCain and Senator Obama, and really, the constituencies that they represent. Because, you know, the mother that gave Senator McCain his bracelet, her comments were please, don't let my son die in vain. And then, the mother that gave Senator Obama his bracelet, her comments were please don't let this happen to another mother. And, I think that it just more than ever highlighted the fundamental difference between this camp that says, the victory in Iraq is everything, and it doesn't matter how long we have to stay so long as we win. And the camp that says, we never should have gone to begin with, and we need to get out as quickly as possible. So it's definitely a pivotal moment.
MARTIN: Did anybody - was there any kind of an ouch on either side? Because I think that the - there are those who think that both of these men, forgive me, could be a jerk, can be a jerk at points and have sort of an unappealing edge that sometimes flashes through. Did - was there any ouch moment for that for either side, Tyler?
Mr. CLEMONS: You know I think in the hall you could definitely feel the tension between the two candidates. I don't know whether that was because Senator Obama was frustrated with Senator McCain, because of his saying that he wasn't going to come to the debate and then coming and putting us all through that, or whether these two men genuinely don't like each other very much.
MARTIN: That's interesting. We just have to pause here just very briefly, just briefly. We are going to continue this conversation in just a minute after a very short break with Pamela Gentry, Washington Bureau Chief for BET, Freelance reporter Luis Clemens and Tyler Clemons, editor-in-chief of the Daily Mississippian at the University of Mississippi. The conversation continues on Tell Me More from NPR News, I'm Michel Martin.
(Soundbite of music)
MARTIN: I'm Michel Martin, and this is Tell Me More from NPR News. Coming up, we'll have our weekly look inside the pages of the Washington Post magazine, that's next. But first, we want to continue our conversation about Friday's presidential debate with Pamela Gentry, Senior Political Producer and Washington Bureau Chief for BET, political analyst Luis Clemens and with Tyler Clemons, he's the editor of The Daily Mississippian, that's the student newspaper for the University of Mississippi which hosted the debate.
Just want to spend just a couple of more minutes on this ready versus not ready debate that they had - the debate within the debate that they had Friday night. I want to play a couple of clips. Senator McCain emphasizing that he's far more experienced than Senator Obama, as Tyler was pointing out. And it kind of repeatedly argued that Obama just didn't understand certain things. So I want to play a short clip. I think we're going to hear first from Senator Obama who pushed back hard on this question, and then we're going to hear from Senator McCain. Here it is.
(Soundbite of presidential debate clips)
Senator BARACK OBAMA (Democratic, Illinois, Presidential Candidate): John, you like to pretend like the war started in 2007. You talk about the surge. The war started in 2003. And at that, time when the war started, you said it was going to be quick and easy. You said were knew where the weapons of mass destruction were. You were wrong. You said that we were going to be greeted as liberators. You were wrong. You said that there was no history of violence between Shiite and Sunni. And you were wrong.
Senator JOHN MCCAIN (Republican, Arizona, Presidential Candidate): I'm afraid Senator Obama doesn't understand the difference between a tactic and a strategy. But the import - I'd like to tell you, two Fourths of July ago, I was in Baghdad. General Petraeus invited Senator Lindsey Graham and me to attend the ceremony where 688 brave young Americans whose enlistment had - had expired were re-enlisting to stay and fight for Iraqi freedom and American freedom. I was honored to be there, I was honored to speak to those troops. And you know, afterwards, we spent a lot of time with them. And you know what they said to us? They said, 'Let us win.'
MARTIN: Luis, how effective do you think these arguments - each of these arguments is, particularly with swing voters? I am asking on part because even though Latino voters have gravitated behind Obama in recent months they're still considered a swing vote.
Mr. CLEMENS: There're still very much a swing vote in places like Florida, New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada to a lesser extent. I think this discussion of Iraq is fundamental when it comes to Latino voters. Why? Because Latinos are overrepresented in the armed forces. Practically every Latino family I know has some extended family member in Iraq, and they are split as the rest of the country is when it comes to this issue. So I think it plays to each respective choir. You bring pre-existing notions and vices whether you want victory or you want to get the heck out.
MARTIN: Let's talk about the next debate in the time that we have left. Pam Gentry, the next debate is between the vice presidential candidates this Thursday, Sarah Palin and Joe Biden. We haven't heard any - talk about anybody not showing up so let's just plan on that. What does each of them have to accomplish in this debate?
Ms. GENRTY: Well, I think it's - you know, I don't think anyone's focused on Senator Joe Biden. It's - you know, it's kind of unfortunate, it's like he's the guy who's coming to the debate that no one's asking about. All of the attention is going to be on Sarah Palin - Governor Palin - to see if she can really go toe to toe with Senator Joe Biden. The format appears to be the safest that they could negotiate for her so there's not a lot of rebuttal and back and forth and, you know, them having to speak to each other directly so she has to respond to questions. But right now, the word seems to be prep, prep, prep. They've moved senior advisers from Senator McCain to her, to her camp now.
MARTIN: Tyler, what do you think? I assume you are going to be watching this as well.
Mr. CLEMONS: Oh, absolutely.
MARTIN: And what do you think needs to happen? She's obviously - Sarah Palin is obviously been seen as a person whose has really energized voters in the conservative movement even though a lot of other people have taken really a sharp eye at her credentials and her performance in recent days. What do you think she needs to do? What do both of them need to do?
Mr. CLEMONS: Well, I think that in the conversation is, and Pam is exactly right, the conversation is about Governor Palin. And I think what she needs to do is she has energized that conservative base, but I think that that energy is beginning to die down just a little bit and people are ready to see that she has what it takes to be vice president. And that should, God forbid, something happened to Senator McCain if he were to become president, that she could take over and lead. And, I think she's had some interviews in the past few days that have kind of tarnished that image a little bit. And, I think that she's going to pick it up and show people that she does indeed have what it takes to lead this country.
MARTIN: Are younger voters excited, the one that you talked to on campus, are they as excited about her as we've been hearing younger voters had been about Barack Obama?
Mr. CLEMONS: I think they definitely are. We're traditionally conservative campus. I say you're either a quiet Republican or a loud Democratic and there are far more quite Republicans than there are loud Democrats. But I think that people were not quite as energized, at least the conservative base wasn't on this campus, until Governor Palin joined the campaign. I think it did - she did exactly what Senator McCain wanted her to do.
MARTIN: OK. Final thought from you, Luis Clemens.
Mr. CLEMENS: Well, I hope this time, someone ask questions about immigration, Latin America, about black people, about Latinos, about Asians because they sure didn't in this last debate.
MARTIN: Sure right about that. Luis Clemens is a political analyst. He joined us from our Washington studios along with Pamela Gentry, who is the Washington Bureau Chief and Senior Political Producer for BET networks. Tyler Clemons is the Editor-In-Chief of the Daily Mississippian at the University of Mississippi. He joined us from Oxford, Mississippi. I thank you all so much for joining us.
Ms. GENTRY: It's a pleasure.
Mr. CLEMONS: Thanks you Michel.
Mr. CLEMENS: Thank you.
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