LULU GARCIA-NAVARRO, HOST:
Helen was the face that launched, of course, a thousand ships. The Spartan queen seduced by the son of a Trojan king, leaving her husband to send Greek sailors and soldiers to retrieve her, the start of an epic and bloody war - that classic tale has been told and retold for generations. And there's now a new version with a twist. The stories of the women are the focus, not the stories of the men. Natalie Haynes is the author of "A Thousand Ships," her latest book inspired by Greek and Roman mythology. And she joins me now from London. Welcome to the program.
NATALIE HAYNES: Oh, thanks for having me. It's so nice to be here.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I love these stories.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah, I mean...
HAYNES: You can be in my gang.
HAYNES: That's the rules.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: The "Iliad," the "Odyssey," "The Trojan Women" - you know, the women are there, but what do you think that Homer and Virgil and Euripides got wrong?
HAYNES: Well, Euripides doesn't get very much wrong, truthfully. He writes eight tragedies about the Trojan War which survived to us today. Fully seven of those tragedies have women as the title characters. So he can also be in my gang.
HAYNES: But, you know, I don't - I guess I don't think it's a question of getting things wrong. It's just a question of - as time passes, we end up focusing on just a different bit of the story. So Homer tells us in The "Iliad." We think of it as the great Trojan War narrative, and it is. But actually, it tells us about two months of the war which lasts for 10 years. And that's the story that we have. In the "Odyssey," which is a much more expansive story, then we get very many more female characters. But, you know, what happens is that then in the fifth century B.C., when these stories are reinterpreted by the great dramatists, is that they realize, I think, that if you want drama, you need to come off the battlefield because the drama of the battlefield is quite limited in its scope. You know, it's a fight.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: One dimensional, yeah. As you mentioned, there is this sort of rich field of women characters for you to work with - Hecuba, the queen of Troy, the survivors who are with her, including Cassandra, who foretold it all but was ignored. These are the women who have lost sons. They've lost husbands. They've lost their homes. They have felt, you know, the sting of battle and its results. And they don't necessarily see glory in that sacrifice.
HAYNES: No. I mean, one of the things that inspired me when I wrote this book - it was a film that I saw at the Cannes Film Festival - extremely harrowing and very impressive documentary about restorative justice in Rwanda, where there had been, of course, an absolutely horrific genocide. What I looked at was how these women, who had obviously survived the war insofar as they were still alive. But they had been brutalized in the waging of that war. And they were then being asked, essentially, to live next door to the men who had killed their relatives and brutalized their bodies. And I remember thinking, you know, it doesn't look to me like these women are receiving any kind of justice. It looks like they're having to tolerate what they're given because there's no alternative. That theme ran through writing "A Thousand Ships" for me - is but these women have no agency, no power at all, the women who survive the war but are Trojan. They're going to be enslaved, and they don't get to say who enslaves them.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: And this book is narrated by, you know, very different women. You've got Calliope, or as you pronounce it...
HAYNES: I say Calli-oh-pee, but I'm - there's - I'm not the guardian of Greek pronunciation.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: (Laughter) I just...
HAYNES: So you should say it however you want. There is no wrong answer.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I wanted to leave that out there. You also have the story of an Amazon warrior who arrives to fight the Greeks.
HAYNES: Yeah, Penthesilea.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Penthesilea - and you've got Penelope as well, the wife of Odysseus, who also provides some sort of comic relief.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: It's this cast of characters, and they all have very different roles. How did you decide to highlight the different women and what they were doing? And why these women?
HAYNES: When I had the idea for the book, I was walking home. And I thought you know what would be really cool? - is to do, like, the Trojan War from the perspectives of all the women in it, all the women whose lives are touched by it. So that would be the goddesses that cause it. That would be, you know, the Trojan women. That would be the Greek women. And then I thought, oh, no, wait. Hang on. And then there's the Amazons who come to fight after the end of the action of the "Iliad." It just expanded and expanded, as I - well, wait. What about all the women in the "Odyssey"? Oh, hang on.
HAYNES: I wrote the first Penelope letter, which is, obviously, very heavily inspired by Ovid's "Heroides," a collection of poems. And the first of them is from Penelope to her husband. And I thought, well, I'll write that one, and then I'll tell the whole of Odysseus's story through the perspectives of all the women of the "Odyssey." Brilliant. And I wrote the first one, and I was like, there is no way I am not writing the rest of these in Penelope's voice. I was so infatuated with her by the time. I was like, yeah, no, she can stay, OK. And so some of them got kind of discounted that way. But generally, it was as many women as I could fit in.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Well, we should say at this point that you also do stand-up comedy about classical characters.
HAYNES: I do do that, yes.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yes, and I want to say this also because you could hear the way that you talk about it. It's as if you know these people.
HAYNES: Yeah, I don't have very many real friends, I should tell you that, as well (laughter). Basically, I'm just left my flat under permanent lockdown, hanging out with Greek women.
HAYNES: It's quite an odd life it's turned into. It's not what I was expecting. But yeah, no, I was a stand-up comic for about a decade - a bit longer, actually. And so, yeah, I am used to talking to an audience about these women as though they were real. I can't help it.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: There is this thing, though. You know, the classics, as you say, are part of our culture, and I use that word, I guess, advisedly.
HAYNES: I mean, it's really hard, isn't it?
GARCIA-NAVARRO: It is.
HAYNES: Because I sometimes have to say, you know, which bit of culture? Well, Western. Well, west of where? Oh, God.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Yeah, exactly.
HAYNES: (Laughter) I'm so sorry. I don't have the time and energy to explain to everybody what the problematic notions of both Western and culture are (laughter).
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Culture are - exactly. But they have been used by men to uphold the sort of misogynistic understanding of the role of women in society. And obviously, your retelling disrupts that. But some critics have said that this is a misappropriation of the classics. What do you respond?
HAYNES: Well, I mean, it's only a misappropriation of the classics if you don't think very much about classics, I would suggest. Obviously, it was good enough for Euripides to focus on the stories of women. It was good enough for Ovid. You know, you can't stop people who want to be angry at voices that haven't been heard being heard for the first time. They see a loss of privilege as somehow being a loss of status. And the good news is that if you're furious with me for writing this version, there are literally thousands of books about the Trojan War you could read instead. And pretty well all of them will focus on men. So have a good time.
HAYNES: You know, you literally can't have a better alternative. Help yourself.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: So what do you want readers to take away from this?
HAYNES: Oh, I hope they find a story that they didn't know, even if they thought they knew it. I hope they find a story that is new to them. You have to really hunt through ancient literature to find more out about somebody like Penthesilea. You can read her story in Quintus Smyrnaeus's "Fall Of Troy," but not even very many classicists have read Quintus Smyrnaeus's "Fall Of Troy."
GARCIA-NAVARRO: I will admit...
GARCIA-NAVARRO: ...Many of the characters were new to me (laughter).
HAYNES: Yeah, and I hope that that sheds some extra light. There's no reason why women who have pretty well always been half the world shouldn't be shown in the stories that we've been telling ourselves for a couple of millennia. So, you know, I hope it allows us to look at the story a little bit differently.
GARCIA-NAVARRO: Natalie Haynes is the author of "A Thousand Ships." Thank you so much.
HAYNES: Thanks for having me.
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