MICHEL MARTIN, host:
I am Michel Martin, and this is Tell Me More from NPR News. Normally at this time, we bring you our weekly visit with the moms, our conversations with the diverse community of parents and experts who offer advice and support from the parenthood trenches.
But today, in honor of Veterans' Day, we want to pay a special tribute to the men and women who have served their country in uniform, especially those who did so where their country did not always afford them the respect and recognition they deserved.
And to do that, we are going to turn to the father of one of our regular mom contributors, Jolene Ivey. His name is Joseph Stephenson, and during World War Two, he was one of the more than 900,000 African-Americans who served in the Army. But because of the attitudes of the time, only one black division actually went to combat in Europe, the 92nd Infantry Division.
Joseph Stephenson was a part of that division. He went on to dedicate 20 years of his life to military service, earning a silver star, two bronze stars, and two purple hearts, and he is with us now in our Washington studio. Welcome to the program. Thank you so much for speaking with us.
Mr. JOSEPH STEPHENSON: Thank you very much, ma'am.
MARTIN: Tell me how you joined the Army?
Mr. STEPHENSON: Well, at that time, I had just completed college down in Greensboro, North Carolina. So I had a college degree, which I got in 1941. Well, Pearl Harbor came in December 1941, and as you remember, with Pearl Harbor coming, naturally, the draft picked up, and a lot of the boys, especially my friends, rushed down to register to volunteer. And also, I came up here to Washington, D.C. to wait my time, but in the meantime, I was trying to find a job.
MARTIN: Did you wind up volunteering or did they come - Uncle Sam come get you?
Mr. STEPHENSON: No. What happened was, a lot of my friends down in North Carolina and everywhere else were volunteering. And each time somebody would volunteer, it would push me back. So it looked like it would be a long time before they'd call - when I say a long time, I mean maybe six months or so. Well, I got tired of waiting. So I went back to North Carolina. I volunteered, and next thing I knew, I was down in Fort Bragg, North Carolina.
MARTIN: How did you end up in the 92nd?
Mr. STEPHENSON: I'd never heard of the 92nd at that time. I didn't know where I was going. At that time, I didn't particularly care. I did care about one thing. I did not want to serve in the Deep South, like Mississippi and those particular horrible states, because they had a terrible history of racial violence, the Klan and all of that.
MARTIN: The 92nd was one of the few combat regiments that African-Americans were assigned to because, up to that point, as I understand it, the African-American men were mainly assigned to do the support and support units - truck drivers, mechanics and so forth like that. Did you want to go into combat? Was that your intention, or you just thought, I'll go wherever they send me.
Mr. STEPHENSON: Well, I guess I said, I'll go where ever they send me, but I prefer the combat unit. I don't want to drive a truck, and I didn't want to work in a kitchen. I had ROTC in college, and I knew how to drill, and I knew how to do basic things. So, yes.
MARTIN: The members of your unit were called, at least have come to be called buffalo soldiers. Now, that's a name, of course, that, you know, black soldiers who served in the 1860s in the American West were also called, but did you all use that term yourselves?
Mr. STEPHENSON: Oh, yes, yes, yes. We were buffalos. We still use it, but most of us are fading away, of course.
MARTIN: Well, you're not. We're glad you're here with us. The 92nd Infantry in Italy saw a very great deal of combat. You had 616 killed in action. There were 2,000 wounded.
Mr. STEPHENSON: Yes.
MARTIN: Do you remember those days?
Mr. STEPHENSON: Yes, I remember that very, very well. At first, we didn't think we were going overseas, to be frank with you, because we thought the military just didn't want to have black troops. And there seemed to be some fear of putting black soldiers - arming them with weapons and especially in basic training places in the South.
But there was a great push on by the NAACP and other black leaders. We want our boys to fight just like the others. We don't want them to just do service jobs.
MARTIN: I have heard men of your generation, my father's generation say that, you know, obviously, nobody wants to go to war. I mean, very few people want to go to war. On the other hand, a lot of the men said that they felt that they had something to prove. Did you feel that way?
Mr. STEPHENSON: I don't know how I felt about that. But for some reason, I wanted to go to a combat unit. So maybe I did.
MARTIN: Did you have all black officers, or did you have white officers commanding your regiment?
Mr. STEPHENSON: When you say commanding, white officers. Black officers hardly command anything. It remained that way for some time. But soon, some of us did get promoted and moved up to command platoons and companies.
MARTIN: You were promoted, though. What was it like when you were promoted?
Mr. STEPHENSON: Well, I wasn't the first to be promoted, so I saw some of the others get promoted to first lieutenant. I can remember some very vividly, and I felt that there was always a chance. And then, on January 1st, 1944, I became a first lieutenant. Well, I had worked hard at it and had a good reputation, and I expected to be promoted as soon as I could.
I do remember writing a sad letter home to my mother before I was promoted. It looked like I wasn't going to be promoted for a while. And I saw mostly whites getting promoted and moving up - very few blacks. And I wrote this sad letter home to my mom about the treatment that we were getting as far as the promotion is concerned. And I remember her answer, work hard, son. Keep working hard. Thing will come your way if you work hard enough for it.
MARTIN: What was it like when you went overseas?
Mr. STEPHENSON: Well, the division commander put out a message and said, you will see combat. Because I thought we were just training, doing the same things over and over and over again, and I didn't think we'd see anything. But next thing I knew, we were going overseas, and we knew we were going to fight. But it was a big secret, and this is the funny part, big secret. Where are we going? Can't tell you, but we were taking Italian lessons.
(Soundbite of laughter)
Mr. STEPHENSON: So where do they teach - where do they speak Italian other than Italy? Maybe Ethiopia, but we can't be going there. So it has to be Italy.
MARTIN: If you're just joining us, you're listening to Tell Me More from NPR News. It's our Wisdom Watch conversation. I'm speaking with Army veteran and buffalo soldier Joseph Stephenson. The story Spike Lee tells in "The Miracle at St. Anna" follows four black soliders of the 92nd who get trapped near a small Tuscan village during the Italian campaign. I don't know if you've seen the movie.
Mr. STEPHENSON: I've seen it.
MARTIN: Does he get it right?
Mr. STEPHENSON: Yes. I'm sure he did because a lot of things happened, some that I knew about, and some I don't.
MARTIN: Can you describe, though, the - what it's like to be under fire, to be literally fighting? I mean, many people who have this experience of fighting, you know, they think, OK, well, somebody punched me; I punched them back. Or then they have this sort of version of like just a lot - sort of noise and smoke and - can you describe it?
Mr. STEPHENSON: I remember we were on the west coast of Italy, and we had passwords. So at night, if you went out, you'd better know the password, or you might get shot by one of your own men.
Because I remember a young man, I had to go from one place to another at night. The next thing I knew, a fellow had stepped out from the bushes and with a big rifle with the muzzle in my eye. And he said red. Well, let's say this password was red fox. I'd better say fox because he'd pull the trigger, and he had that rifle right here. So I said fox, and then he said, pass on. That was a scary time because I didn't know whether that man was nervous with that trigger or not.
But we got our first battle experience right down in the west coast of Italy. Well, we didn't do too much fighting there because the Germans were many yards away from us, and we were down there in - mostly in houses. A few of them were out in the fox holes and things like that.
And suddenly, we were picked up and sent over to another unit, which was white. Now, we replaced the unit that was over there, and we became a part of this white unit. And I thought, they had been overseas a long time, so they are battle-hardened, so we learned a lot from them. That's where I carried my first patrol out while I was over there.
And that was a kind of a scary thing to go out on patrol because you go out beyond your lines, and you take about maybe 12 men with you, and you know you're going to fight somebody. So you go out, and you wait, and you know soon that you're going to come under fire.
MARTIN: What was it like the first time you came under fire?
Mr. STEPHENSON: I remember that vividly. It was a machine gun fired right over our heads, and we fired back at them. And then we had supporting fires that came also with us, bigger guns firing in front of us. So it was something that we had come to do, and we did it.
MARTIN: Well, it couldn't have been just that simple because you were awarded over the course of your service, both in World War Two and Korea, as I understand it, two bronze stars, a silver star, two purple hearts. You don't just get those...
Mr. STEPHENSON: Well, now you can talk casually about it, but it wasn't casual then. Yes, I did get exactly that in two wars, and I might tell you that I didn't have to go to Korea. I was on ROTC duty down in my college. But I had some friends who had gone to Korea, and we used to be kind of robust.
We were always trying outdo the other. They went overseas, came back from Korea. And I ran across them, and they said, where are you stationed now? I said, in ROTC. And they laughed because they had been in combat over in Korea, and I had been in a non-combat in ROTC.
Well, I went to thinking about that. I went on to the Pentagon, and I volunteered to go overseas. Well, they looked at me like I lost my mind. They said, you know where you're going, don't you? You're going to Korea. I said, no other place I'd rather be. As I remember, the man told me to go home and think it over and come back the next day because you must have lost your mind. I went home, I came back, and I told him I was ready to go.
MARTIN: Do you think that Korea has gotten its due? Some people kind of think if it as the forgotten conflict.
Mr. STEPHENSON: Well, it could be for those who had no relationship with Korea. I don't think it's really forgotten, not by me and my generation, anyway.
MARTIN: You wound up serving 20 years.
Mr. STEPHENSON: Yes, I served 20 years, and I taught for 20 years.
MARTIN: Why do you think you stayed in for 20 years?
Mr. STEPHENSON: Well, at first, I had decided to do that because I had a job and - that I wanted to do with the Board of Education as a teacher. That's what I was trained to do. But after I got off the boat, and I came home, I went to thinking about it. And I said, well, the Army has been pretty good to me, and I think I've been pretty good to the Army. So I think I'll just stay, and this captain who was interviewing me, he was pushing me to stay. Some of my buddies were doing the same thing, so I just went on and did that, too.
MARTIN: Many people who served after World War Two have not felt that the country has appreciated their service.
Mr. STEPHENSON: That's right.
MARTIN: Have you felt appreciated for your service?
Mr. STEPHENSON: Well, I wasn't walking around looking for appreciation, pats on the back and all of that. But I felt that, when I would watch certain blacks moving to pretty good positions and things like that, I felt like there had been an appreciation along some lines, like Colin Powell and some of the others. I felt like things had changed to a certain degree. It might be slow, but I saw the change coming.
And when I was on ROTC, I used to go to summer camp. There, we had segregated clubs, but our training was integrated. And then integration came about the time that I was on ROTC duty, but I could see it coming. Then, when I got to Korea, I was the company commander of 130 men. 110 were white. And I was the company commander, so what I'd say went. And do you know, seven of those men write to me right now. They've long left the Army, of course. But seven of them - one, my driver, he came by to see me once, he and his wife.
MARTIN: OK.
Mr. STEPHENSON: And he was a white southerner, but he had to do what I told him to do.
MARTIN: After such a storied career, do you have some wisdom that you can share with us?
Mr. STEPHENSON: I wouldn't call it wisdom. But I'll tell you what I tell my grandsons, let's put it that way. I usually tell them to listen to their parents and do exactly what they tell you to do because I've listened myself to them talking to you, and they are correct. And don't hang out with the bad crowd. Don't do that. And I noticed that the kids that they bring around home seem to be very decent kids, and I'm very glad to see that.
MARTIN: World War Two veteran Joseph Stephenson served with 92nd Infantry Division in the European Theater. In his 20 years in the Army, he was awarded two bronze stars, a silver star, and two purple hearts. He was kind enough to join us from our studios in Washington. And if nobody has said this to you lately, Mr. Stephenson, may I thank you for your service.
Mr. STEPHENSON: Thank you very much for your patience.
(Soundbite of music)
MARTIN: And that's our program for today. I'm Michel Martin, and this is Tell Me More from NPR News. And to all those who have served and continued to serve here and overseas, we thank you on this Veterans' Day. Let's talk more tomorrow.
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